[Hanesu]

Agree that Sonion EST has a unique timbre that does come with very high resolutions but is not always the most natural-sounding timbre.

I personally like both EST and BA and am sad to see fewer 10+BA sets coming out these days.

I feel the term "natural" is very subjective, especially in combination with so called "BA timbre".
For example, I realized that Precog wrote in his "bias list" (I just got aware of it through this thread) and CanJam report that he thinks the QDC Tiger has a "stereotypical BA sound" that he finds "wispy" and has described in other reviews as unnatural or "plastic BA timbre".
In comparison, Twister 6, another established reviewer writes:
"Overall, qdc Tiger has a smooth, natural, detailed sound with a warmer tonality. I found it to have all-rounder tuning that works great with any genre, especially vocal tracks for those who enjoy fuller body natural timbre.

It reads like a total contradiction of impressions (well, it is - and that`s ok!)!

Myself, too, I have never become really close friends with full BA driver setups. The Tiger, on the other hand, is the first of the BA sets I owned so far that sounds really "natural" to me (in my own definition..hehe! )!

Welcome to our hobby and its subjectivity!

 

[Hanesu]

It's very possible that they could get something similar for a fraction of the cost. I don't think there's even crossovers in the Trifecta. It's basically three dynamic drivers jammed into a shell

Without pointing the fingers (only) towards Campfire Audio (but many other portable audio companies,too!): I really like what you wrote here!
Prices are getting higher and higher with every model released and I have asked myself so many times: WHY is that actually (pure economic reasons besides)?
Because the basics of how to manufacture earphones haven`t dramatically changed over the years! Earphones - in comparison to other technological products that evolve over time - are far from being very complex!
Earphones are - just as you say - basically some drivers, that most of the time even get produced by third party makers, jammed into a housing!
So often makers find fancy terms for so called "innovative technology" used in earphones that are in fact is nothing more than little changes. For example, just create an extra chamber in the housing or attach drivers directly to the housing instead of using tubes etc. Those little changes should, at least in my opinion, be part of the "normal" development process and improvement of a technical product and should NOT automatically lead to (literally!) thousands and thousands more Dollars that so called flagship earphones cost every year!

 

[maceto]

Without pointing the fingers (only) towards Campfire Audio (but many other portable audio companies,too!): I really like what you wrote here!
Prices are getting higher and higher with every model released and I have asked myself so many times: WHY is that actually (pure economic reasons besides)?
Because the basics of how to manufacture earphones havn`t dramatically changed over the years! Earphones - in comparison to other technological products that evolve over time - are far from being very complex!
Earphones are - just as you say it - basically some drivers, that most of the time get produced by third party makers, jammed into a housing!
So often makers find fancy terms for so called "innovative technology" used in earphones that are in fact nothing more than little changes, for example just create an extra chamber in the housing or attach drivers directly to the housing instead of using tubes etc. Those little changes should, at least in my opinion, be part of the "normal" development process and improvement of a technical product and should NOT automatically lead to (literally!) thousands and thousands more dollars that flagship earphones cost every year!

Look at Sennheiser… if they can tweak the ei900 I’d never look back with that fit and weight. I got the u12t and Shure 846, some incoming and more. But I’d never pulled the plug on some of the 15 driver put it all in a bucket and force it into your ear designs as that’s like wearing an oversized watch…

Simple is the way to go, but do it right. I’d take that any day compared to a hit and miss fit and comfort IEM

 

[AmericanSpirit]

I feel the term "natural" is very subjective, especially in combination with so called "BA timbre".
For example, I realized that Precog wrote in his "bias list" (I just got aware of it through this thread) and CanJam report that he thinks the QDC Tiger has a "stereotypical BA sound" that he finds "wispy" and has described in other reviews as unnatural or "plastic BA timbre".
In comparison, Twister 6, another established reviewer writes:
"Overall, qdc Tiger has a smooth, natural, detailed sound with a warmer tonality. I found it to have all-rounder tuning that works great with any genre, especially vocal tracks for those who enjoy fuller body natural timbre.

It reads like a total contradiction of impressions (well, it is - and that`s ok!)!

Myself, too, I have never become really close friends with full BA driver setups. The Tiger, on the other hand, is the first of the BA sets I owned so far that sounds really "natural" to me (in my own definition..hehe! )!

Welcome to our hobby and its subjectivity!

yea timbre is very subjective topic indeed. I am a drummer and very sensitive to drum timbre. Drums has one of the widest dynamic range from sub-bass all the way to upper registers.

Of which dynamic drivers has very good low end reproduction, but when it comes to higher registers I feel it lacks resolution and separations, for EST it has those resolution and separations, yet sometime is too soft and actual energy is lacking.

For that BA although may not sound natural at a type, it has good mid-high detail x energy, and good balance between soft / hard (harmonic rendering). Those timbre rendering is very subjective preference I guess. We have Planar waging in to IEM world and that has good balance of speed x energy as well, especially for mid-range Planar is a very good pick.

 

[DynamicEars]

yea timbre is very subjective topic indeed. I am a drummer and very sensitive to drum timbre. Drums has one of the widest dynamic range from sub-bass all the way to upper registers.

Of which dynamic drivers has very good low end reproduction, but when it comes to higher registers I feel it lacks resolution and separations, for EST it has those resolution and separations, yet sometime is too soft and actual energy is lacking.

For that BA although may not sound natural at a type, it has good mid-high detail x energy, and good balance between soft / hard (harmonic rendering). Those timbre rendering is very subjective preference I guess. We have Planar waging in to IEM world and that has good balance of speed x energy as well, especially for mid-range Planar is a very good pick.

Oh yes, ESTs characteristic are extended yet soft. At earlier IEM implementation of ESTs, they were tuned like BA level of db quantity so lot ESTs are wasted, sounded too soft.
IMHO ESTs should tuned a bit more higher quantity than more aggressive BA on the same frequencies to have similar bitey presentation or else they will be too soft.
Perhaps tweetwr DD (small diameter) is quite good option as higher frequency, the Z1R is quite good example. Planar also good in my opinion, but bass part DD still the best out there for the impact and rumble.

 

[Ace Bee]

I feel the term "natural" is very subjective, especially in combination with so called "BA timbre".
For example, I realized that Precog wrote in his "bias list" (I just got aware of it through this thread) and CanJam report that he thinks the QDC Tiger has a "stereotypical BA sound" that he finds "wispy" and has described in other reviews as unnatural or "plastic BA timbre".
In comparison, Twister 6, another established reviewer writes:
"Overall, qdc Tiger has a smooth, natural, detailed sound with a warmer tonality. I found it to have all-rounder tuning that works great with any genre, especially vocal tracks for those who enjoy fuller body natural timbre.

It reads like a total contradiction of impressions (well, it is - and that`s ok!)!

Myself, too, I have never become really close friends with full BA driver setups. The Tiger, on the other hand, is the first of the BA sets I owned so far that sounds really "natural" to me (in my own definition..hehe! )!

Welcome to our hobby and its subjectivity!

I can attest to this. Like you, I can never find BA timbre natural in any of my previous experience, except may be Unique Melody Mirage...however, a recent audition of Symphonium Meteor changed that - if I was not informed, I would have readily accepted it as a DD+BA hybrid, where the DD is handling the Low and the Mid, and the Ba is handling the treble.

I am currently completely a full range DD guy, and quite happy and satisfied with them.

 

[AmericanSpirit]

I can attest to this. Like you, I can never find BA timbre natural in any of my previous experience, except may be Unique Melody Mirage...however, a recent audition of Symphonium Meteor changed that - if I was not unformed, I would have readily accepted it as a DD+BA hybrid, where the DD is handling the Low and the Mid, and the Ba is handling the treble.

I am currently completely a full range DD guy, and quite happy and satisfied with them.

Symphonium Meteor seemed having similar technology with Softears RSV, hmm interesting

 

[DaveStarWalker]

I feel the term "natural" is very subjective, especially in combination with so called "BA timbre".
For example, I realized that Precog wrote in his "bias list" (I just got aware of it through this thread) and CanJam report that he thinks the QDC Tiger has a "stereotypical BA sound" that he finds "wispy" and has described in other reviews as unnatural or "plastic BA timbre".
In comparison, Twister 6, another established reviewer writes:
"Overall, qdc Tiger has a smooth, natural, detailed sound with a warmer tonality. I found it to have all-rounder tuning that works great with any genre, especially vocal tracks for those who enjoy fuller body natural timbre.

It reads like a total contradiction of impressions (well, it is - and that`s ok!)!

Myself, too, I have never become really close friends with full BA driver setups. The Tiger, on the other hand, is the first of the BA sets I owned so far that sounds really "natural" to me (in my own definition..hehe! )!

Welcome to our hobby and its subjectivity!

It's just the perfect illustration that you can't, and shouldn't, listen with the ears of others.

The reviews of the net must only be indicative, and it is necessary to cross them, to confront them. Also, there are no sacred cows, neither on one side the knowers, and the others, poor mortals.

We simply don't all have the same access to products, nor do we necessarily have the ability to properly express our opinions and criticisms.

An elegant solution is to spot the tastes of the reviewer, influencer, especially when he talks about earphones that we like and know.

If we share his opinion ... It means that, in principle, his tastes are similar to ours.

 

[Sharppain]

"An elegant solution is to spot the tastes of the reviewer, influencer, especially when he talks about earphones that we like and know."

EXACTLY

 

[hevelaoak]

We have Planar waging in to IEM world and that has good balance of speed x energy as well, especially for mid-range Planar is a very good pick.

ooohhh. I'm interested in midrange planar, but with DD lows and DD highs. or BA highs + EST ultra highs. I find that most BA treble sets work better than EST sets. but I still want that EST extension like the ones in ThieAudio Oracles (minus the wispiness). so, why not BA for treble and EST for upper treble? now, who's up for that? maybe I could go meet Lee of Elysian Acoustic Labs and force him to tune/make one (we live very near to each other).

 

[Hanesu]

An elegant solution is to spot the tastes of the reviewer, influencer, especially when he talks about earphones that we like and know.

If we share his opinion ... It means that, in principle, his tastes are similar to ours.

200% agree!!!

 

[hevelaoak]

Perhaps tweetwr DD (small diameter) is quite good option as higher frequency

I think if tuned right, a small DD (around 5-6mm) can be the "best" transducer for treble. it's weird that there are not many of them (hybrid/multi-driver with small DD for treble), and I'm still waiting.

oh ya, I saw a new upcoming IEM with a small DD for treble. it's called Legato by 7Hz. I think it's a budget set, so...

 

[Sharppain]

I think if tuned right, a small DD (around 5-6mm) can be the "best" transducer for treble. it's weird that there are not many of them (hybrid/multi-driver with small DD for treble), and I'm still waiting.

oh ya, I saw a new upcoming IEM with a small DD for treble. it's called Legato by 7Hz. I think it's a budget set, so...

Yep, best example is Z1R iem

 

[SibilantGoose]

I had opportunity to listed to some high end IEM's in Doctorhead, Moscow. I have always been leaning towards @Precogvision rankings, because I'm very critical of the sound and can feel every nuance that is not perfect. As a result, small issues can ruin IEM for me, while fixing a small issue contradictory is a great improvement for me. I was also said I have small ears, keep that in mind.

Anyway, U12t has unlistenable killer peak in treble that makes me want to kill myself. It is not a small issue. I believe it is related to different HRTF of myself, specifically small ears can result in that. I have found 64 Audio Trio being much better that U12t, while no being perfect tonally-wise. Overall rating is following:

1. Trio
2. MEST MKII
3. Variations
4. Kinera Nanna
5. Sony M9
6. Dunu Talos
7. AK Pathfinder

 

[ToneDeafMonk]

I had opportunity to listed to some high end IEM's in Doctorhead, Moscow. I have always been leaning towards @Precogvision rankings, because I'm very critical of the sound and can feel every nuance that is not perfect. As a result, small issues can ruin IEM for me, while fixing a small issue contradictory is a great improvement for me. I was also said I have small ears, keep that in mind.

Anyway, U12t has unlistenable killer peak in treble that makes me want to kill myself. It is not a small issue. I believe it is related to different HRTF of myself, specifically small ears can result in that. I have found 64 Audio Trio being much better that U12t, while no being perfect tonally-wise. Overall rating is following:

1. Trio
2. MEST MKII
3. Variations
4. Kinera Nanna
5. Sony M9
6. Dunu Talos
7. AK Pathfinder

I am genuinely shocked to see a Kinera in there. Everything low end I tried was screem your head off bright!