[InvisibleInk]

Is driver variance an ordinary issue for chifi or is it just a special case of 7hz being at fault?

This is a thing with a lot of immature brands experiencing the western markets. This east-Asian source is more innovative than we have seen, and part of that is rushing product to market. Under pressure, second place might as well be last place when the next hype train embarks. Some of the most well known offenders, such as HiFiMan, have largely turned that around and are righting the ship. So I think it takes about 10 years, in some cases, for companies in disruptive sectors like Shenzhen's hyper-competitive atmosphere, to mature.

I don't think we can pick on China for growing pains when we consider "planned obsolescence" is our own home-grown entrenched circumstance.

 

[WAON303]

Hey Precog, your XBA-N3 review got me interested on getting one later down the road.

You and most people agree the technical performance is average, I'm guessing the N3 has technical performance comparable to the Moondrop Starfield?

 

[redrol]

Technical = treble.. There are other 'technical metrics' that matter more than pumping as much detail as possible. *triggered*

Sony's IEMs beat the typical single DDs easily.

 

[pushyo2khun]

Your feedback makes me feel that Diva & Monarch MK2 are complementary to each other. I think I'll buy both as a one-two combo and hop off from audiophile world for a year

EDIT: on a second thought, Diva is extremely capable for vocals, so my collection might be more all-encompassing if I buy a bassier set for when I'm in the mood for it, vs an all-rounder. I don't think I need a brighter set since emphasis on upper midrange/lower treble sounds off to me so to speak

 

[jlemaster1957]

Your feedback makes me feel that Diva & Monarch MK2 are complementary to each other. I think I'll buy both as a one-two combo and hop off from audiophile world for a year

I thought I would be satisfied with the Mk2 and its great, but the idea of the U12T kept messing around with me like a splinter in my mind until I bought that one too. We need a new thread on this forum … Audiophiles Anonymous.

 

[kmmbd]

You and most people agree the technical performance is average, I'm guessing the N3 has technical performance comparable to the Moondrop Starfield?

IMHO, the N3 eats the Starfield for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. The staging and bass slam is far superior, so is the treble response which is noticeably more resolving on the N3 (vs the graininess on the Starfield, or the muted, soft treble of the Aria).

 

[redrol]

IMHO, the N3 eats the Starfield for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. The staging and bass slam is far superior, so is the treble response which is noticeably more resolving on the N3 (vs the graininess on the Starfield, or the muted, soft treble of the Aria).

Sony is literally in another league compared to these lower end DDs.

 

[Fargeg]

Technical = treble.. There are other 'technical metrics' that matter more than pumping as much detail as possible. *triggered*

This is only true insofar that treble quality is necessary for good technicalities. If you compare the XBA-N3 to the Legend X SE, a more technical bass-emphasized IEM, you can see that the two have about the same amount of treble overall: https://crinacle.com/graphs/iems/graphtool/?share=IEF_Neutral_Target,N3AP,Legend_X_SE

The original Legend X actually has less.

The Legend X series' deep treble notches at 5 kHz and 10 kHz simulate the effects of pinna activation and are important for bass slam/texture and imaging precision. QDC's house tuning with deliberately added 5.5 and 11 kHz notches does something similar. This is why DD and hybrid setups, which can often create these dips naturally, generally have more perceived low-end impact than most BA-only setups. 64 Audio rolls off the treble past 8 kHz and adds a nice big tia-driver boost past 14 kHz to fake this with the pure-BA U12t.

Conversely, an improperly defined notch from 8 kHz up leads to some upper harmonics being overemphasized relative to others and resultant transient smearing, which is why you need a tight, custom-like seal with QDC's IEMs to properly attenuate the upper treble and avoid turning them into plasticky, limp, textureless messes. It's also why EST tribrids, which tend to lack a sufficiently sharp peak past 12 kHz, often have that smoothed-out, wispy treble quality to them.

 

[o0genesis0o]

Technical = treble..

Kinda. Boosting at the right place can even make something as poor as a Shure SE215 sound a bit more “technical”.

However, I also want to add that it’s not just the amount. Too much can be counterproductive.

muted, soft treble of the Aria

Glad that I’m not the only one hearing this.

deep treble notches at 5 kHz and 10 kHz simulate the effects of pinna activation and are important for bass slam/texture and imaging precision.

Agree. IMHO, that 10k dip is essential for tricking the brain into thinking the sound coming from somewhere outside.

Did know that 5k dip helps with slam / texture, though. According to Dan Clark, the trick for slam is a couple db bump at 125hz. I was quite successful with that. Let me try your 5k trick and see.

Audio rolls off the treble past 8 kHz and adds a nice big tia-driver boost past 14 kHz to fake this with the pure-BA U12t.

That 14k air boost is *chef kiss*.

 

[Fargeg]

Did know that 5k dip helps with slam / texture, though. According to Dan Clark, the trick for slam is a couple db bump at 125hz. I was quite successful with that. Let me try your 5k trick and see.

My rule of thumb for a coherent presentation based on my listening experience is that any notch at ~5 kHz should be 10 dB shallower than whatever is at ~10 kHz, making it not necessarily necessary. Dipped mid-treble without a matching upper treble response can have catastrophic effects on imaging, slam, and detail, which is something you can easily notice just by shifting egg-shaped Hifiman headphones around your head. I find this is also what makes IEMs like the 8SL and Clairvoyance suck unless you insert them just right, making tip rolling a nuisance.

I find bass slam is a property at least partially independent of the actual bass response, and I've got some questionably mixed test tracks on hand (Baby Lady LOVE is my main go-to) that have basslines with little actual bass to isolate the treble portion when evaluating gear.

e: Another example track.

 

[s to]

Absolutely. I’m in no position to physically retune IEMs, so I rely on EQ to digitally retune them. Such exercise teaches me a lot about sound reproduction and frequency bands in general.



Totally agree.

• I found that macro details are mostly FR. If the frequencies are balanced enough, you can hear almost every element in a mix. On contrary, tuning with suppressed lower mid can hide bass guitar and reduce the bite of cello.
• A part of micro details like background reverb relies on the interaction between 4k, 8k, and 16k. If you can balance them to avoid masking, you can hear a lot of background details and decay.
• Soundstage shape can be controlled by 1k dip, ear gain, 10k dip and air frequencies. It’s a balancing act between extending soundstage and timbral correctness.

No matter what I do, I cannot simply copy the resolution of Andromeda with EQ. How about you?

Edit: I wish there are some other audiophile around my city so they can blind try my retuned KZ. When many other IEM struggle for air, this one has way too much of everything, so quite easy to EQ for “holography soundstage”

EQ won't copy FR in all of it's tiny incomprehensible pits and grooves with current technology. Similarly graphs are a measurement of FR l, but aren't exactly FR.

EQ just gets sometimes pretty close, and in most cases that's good enough.

 

[jlemaster1957]

EQ won't copy FR in all of it's tiny incomprehensible pits and grooves with current technology. Similarly graphs are a measurement of FR l, but aren't exactly FR.

EQ just gets sometimes pretty close, and in most cases that's good enough.

Agree- practically speaking, I have used EQ like a recipe. When a good ‘cook’ like Precog or @Resolve suggests am EQ based on both their FR measurements and listening experience for a particular driver, I will try it out (usually via Roon’s DSP).and see if I can hear/ if that change suits my sonic ‘taste’. If so I will save and use the EQ profile otherwise not.

Having said that, I have found by experience that finding the right synergy for a driver -especially DAC/amp synergy- can be important and sometimes yields a better result. Sometimes properly driving an IEM that doesn’t particularly HAVE to be driven with a bit more power can make a lot of difference. I’ve found this is particularly the case with respect to ‘bass control’ in IEMs. Btw this doesn’t mean I have a lot of different DAC/amps to pair with my iems/hp’s. But I pay attention to what reviewers are using for their gear and how the driver responds if properly driven vs via something like an iphone dongle . I’m fortunate enough that I have been able to invest in a great amp for IEMs (Cayin C9) and since doing so, I know I can drive pretty much any IEM (though I avoid highly sensitive ones like CFA Andromeda which tend to hiss using devices like that)

This is of course all a generalism - different drivers respond to EQ or other factors like DAC/AMP pairings differently. And of course we all have different ears which also is a factor.

 

[o0genesis0o]

Following up on the EQ, particularly the bass EQ of Andromeda: For the first time ever, I heard distortion in the bass driver when boosting subbass 5db and listen to some orchestral pieces. When the cello and double bass sections start hammering, there is a buzzing sound in the lower bass.

When the bass does not distort, the IEM does sound a bit more impactful, but still no where near decent DD bass.

Moral of the story: I will look for a hybrid for my end game )

@Precogvision I asked 64 audio on twitter if they have any plan for something even cheaper than duo with tia drive, like U3t. They replied that perhaps they are cooking up something like that in their lab. Hopefully something budget friendly would come.

 

[o0genesis0o]

I'd be interested in seeing what happens with this.

Andromedas are a pain to EQ.

I finally able to measure the Andromeda after EQ. I was wrong. That IEM follows the EQ precisely, except the 32Hz region completely freaked out , leading to the distortion that I mentioned previously. I think it is simply the nature of the BA driver used in Andromeda. I have tried FH9 with exactly the same bass tuning, yet that IEM sounds entirely different. I guess the mystery is solved? Btw, measuring the Andromeda is an absolute pain. Almost impossible to align the resonance peak at 8k.

 

[redrol]

BA cant really be amped up a ton in general. Just to ask, what kind of amp are you running? You probably need a device with under 1 Ohm OI.