[shinew]

For people who've done careful & detailed listening between stock/crappy PSU vs good regulated linear power supplies, what are the improvements you're hearing?
tighter bass, better highs? will the differences be noticeable only at high listening volume?

 

[mrarroyo]

I tend to find that the background is darker, better impact (punch) even at low volumes, and an overall clearer presentation. However the observations I listed are not necessarily reproduceable in all amps. Too many variables, in some you may not hear much difference. I should add that the entire system must be of high enough quality for a change such as the PSU to be "heard".

 

[FallenAngel]

The power supply of solid-state amps is critical. With almost all opamp-driven amps being essentially the same, the power supply is generally the only difference and I'm sure you know how different opamp-based amps can sound, even if they use the same opamps.

For transistor/MOSFET amps, there is still a large difference in PSUs and they do make quite a difference. On an amp like the PPAv2, I have ran it off a slightly chopped up version of a TREAD, a complete TREAD and off STEPS. There is definitely a difference.

Of what I actually "hear" with higher end PSUs, there is less noise, improved clarity and better bass impact.

On top of the PSU itself and of course components used, the transformer choice is also quite important as a cheap transformer will add a lot of noise into the circuit, like A LOT! I've built an amp that sounds like it has a small car engine inside of it because I used a junk transformer, even though it was toroidal; replaced with a nicer Amveco model and 90% of the noise went away.

 

[shinew]

Thanks for the feedback.
Quote:

Originally Posted by FallenAngel On top of the PSU itself and of course components used, the transformer choice is also quite important as a cheap transformer will add a lot of noise into the circuit, like A LOT! I've built an amp that sounds like it has a small car engine inside of it because I used a junk transformer, even though it was toroidal; replaced with a nicer Amveco model and 90% of the noise went away.

you mean you could even hear the background noise without the music playing?
I guess I have not experienced a truly bad power supply. I've never heard a power supply making such a big difference.

The reason I'm asking about the difference is because I've purchased a 12V regulated linear power supply for the 2move. Jan told me that everything else in the 2move has already been optimized for its purpose, a good power supply will benefit the amp most.

 

[FallenAngel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinew /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for the feedback. you mean you could even hear the background noise without the music playing? I guess I have not experienced a truly bad power supply. I've never heard a power supply making such a big difference. The reason I'm asking about the difference is because I've purchased a 12V regulated linear power supply for the 2move. Jan told me that everything else in the 2move has already been optimized for its purpose, a good power supply will benefit the amp most.

In that case where there was a truly bad transformer, yes.

Mostly, you will be losing out on dynamics of the sound by going with a cheap PSU.

For the PSU, I would highly recommend using a TREAD, it's cheap and sounds great compared to any commercial bought PSU.

 

[shinew]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FallenAngel /img/forum/go_quote.gif In that case where there was a truly bad transformer, yes. Mostly, you will be losing out on dynamics of the sound by going with a cheap PSU. For the PSU, I would highly recommend using a TREAD, it's cheap and sounds great compared to any commercial bought PSU.

Ya I'll invest more into PSU when I can definitely tell the difference, or when I build/buy a balanced amp. The PSU I bought has the right voltage, decent spec and very cheap(discounted) from Symbol(50-24000-005). I'll start it here to compare it with the 10v tiny switching power supply I've recycled for the 2move.

 

[FallenAngel]

Ok, I think we have a major misunderstanding here. By PSU, I do not mean just the plug-in-the-wall transformer (aka wallwart), I mean the entire power section of the amp (and of course including the rectification/regulation stage).

I would personally recommend against any expensive external regulated wallwarts, they basically suck. No other way to put it. You can go with a cheap unregulated wallwart and use a TREAD to get fantastic results that will beat any regulated commercial PSU or you can go above that by using a good toroidal transformer with a STEPS or Sigma11/Sigma22 tracking PSUs to get even better results. There is not likely to be anything better than a Sigma PSU right now.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by "PSU" in my initial post and the reason the power supply is important; I did not mean the external power supply plugged into an amp, I meant the power circuit inside the amp and the bypassing scheme used by the amp itself that makes a difference. I don't think taking an amp and adding a serious PSU will offer anything that beneficial to it, in fact batteries are the best power supply available anyway, you won't get lower noise than that; you're only really competing with other PSUs by using them. If you can use just batteries, you'll have better sound quality than any PSU can provide. There is one more thing to consider - higher voltage off PSU than batteries means higher voltage swing, that's important and should be considered.

 

[Frihed89]

Greater transparency
More air between the notes
Notes come from a darker background
Low noise floor
Preamps - better dynamics. This may be acheived by SS easier thanTubes.

 

[shinew]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FallenAngel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ok, I think we have a major misunderstanding here. By PSU, I do not mean just the plug-in-the-wall transformer (aka wallwart), I mean the entire power section of the amp (and of course including the rectification/regulation stage). I would personally recommend against any expensive external regulated wallwarts, they basically suck. No other way to put it. You can go with a cheap unregulated wallwart and use a TREAD to get fantastic results that will beat any regulated commercial PSU or you can go above that by using a good toroidal transformer with a STEPS or Sigma11/Sigma22 tracking PSUs to get even better results. There is not likely to be anything better than a Sigma PSU right now. I think you misunderstood what I meant by "PSU" in my initial post and the reason the power supply is important; I did not mean the external power supply plugged into an amp, I meant the power circuit inside the amp and the bypassing scheme used by the amp itself that makes a difference. I don't think taking an amp and adding a serious PSU will offer anything that beneficial to it, in fact batteries are the best power supply available anyway, you won't get lower noise than that; you're only really competing with other PSUs by using them. If you can use just batteries, you'll have better sound quality than any PSU can provide. There is one more thing to consider - higher voltage off PSU than batteries means higher voltage swing, that's important and should be considered.

I see what you meant. But if a walwart states that it's regulated linear power supply, there must be some kind of circuit involved to "regulate" the power isn't it?

So you're saying that any kind of walwart regardless of the specifications is a waste of money? I'm not 100% sure yet but i think the walwart i bought actually sounds better than if I were just to feed the 2move directly from USB power, perhaps more definition & cleaner sound. haven't compared it with a 9v battery or have done any detailed comparison though.

As for batteries for ideal power supply, i read it somewhere that batteries have their shortcomings too, impedance is a major one. But I don't know enough of those stuff to really understand what's going on yet.

I'll build a THREAD or STEPS when I get the needed parts sometime soon.

 

[Solan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FallenAngel /img/forum/go_quote.gif You can go with a cheap unregulated wallwart and use a TREAD to get fantastic results that will beat any regulated commercial PSU or you can go above that by using a good toroidal transformer with a STEPS or Sigma11/Sigma22 tracking PSUs to get even better results. There is not likely to be anything better than a Sigma PSU right now.

How much does a sigma-11 cost? Or parts, perhaps, since it seems to be DIY. I've been recommended getting one for an Apogee mini-DAC. PS: Need 220V, if that makes a difference.

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solan /img/forum/go_quote.gif How much does a sigma-11 cost? Or parts, perhaps, since it seems to be DIY. I've been recommended getting one for an Apogee mini-DAC. PS: Need 220V, if that makes a difference.

You can find more about the Sigma 11 here:

The σ11 Regulated Power Supply

You can order a Sigma 22 kit here:

Glass Jar Audio

It's $103 USD, but am not sure if you can run that kit at 220V.

 

[Ragonix]

I'm confused here, the sigma and treads aren't external power supplies that you connect to you amps, right? They're circuits that you have to diy mod into your existing amp, right?

 

[shinew]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragonix /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm confused here, the sigma and treads aren't external power supplies that you connect to you amps, right? They're circuits that you have to diy mod into your existing amp, right?

not necessarily, they can be made into purely a power filtering unit/circuit(minus the transformer) and feed the filtered power to the amp's power supply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by solan How much does a sigma-11 cost? Or parts, perhaps, since it seems to be DIY. I've been recommended getting one for an Apogee mini-DAC. PS: Need 220V, if that makes a difference.

Have you emailed Apogee to ask if a better power supply is beneficial to the mini-DAC? I know some amps/dac have designed decent enough power filtering circuits into their gears that additional conditioning of the power is not needed.

 

[Solan]

Thanks for the tip, shinew. I sent off the question to them.

 

[onocentaur]

From the hifi.nl review of the minidac, linked from the minidac product page:
Quote:

The external supply, a table top, is nothing but a DC source. Inside the Mini-DAC this DC is being converted to ultra-high frequency AC (in the range of 750kHz) a multiple of the sample rate. Next, the AC is being reconverted to normal DC. The advantage of this system is the high tolerance for any type of external powersupply (the Mini-DAC accepts DC from 6 to 14 Volt, with a minimum of 1.25 Amps). The noise of this procedure is way beyond the audible range and the response time of the circuitry is fast enough for transient up into the inaudible. Apogee claims that there is an overcapacity locally and within the power supply, resulting in a total elimination of garbage, noise, DC within the power net. This is an expensive solution, but it is very effective.

Although I'm still intrigued to hear if there's a difference with a sigma11...