[SamNOISE]

BrainSalad,

Right you are, but open discussion of DBT [always] ends up in verbal warfare between sides. I’ve seen it now in dozens upon dozens of forums – it’s the same every time…

As for the rest of ya': If we let [this] thread devolve to "F@#$ You", no, F*&^ You!" - It’ll simply be canned / locked, by the mod' team...

Brain’, the other way, is to have members conduct evaluations along the lines of what I posted originally, then have them listen to their own recordings and post their process and procedures. We can do this with a lot of different equipment, and seeing as a great number of us have kick-ass audio kit, there’s no reason to believe that we cannot amass a ‘library’ of sorts with .wav (or other lossless formats), of various hardware / cables / fuse or whatever evaluations, along with notations of the equipment used to conduct the eval’.

This is quite simply Peer-Review at it’s core, and offers the most even-handed method of allowing everyone a chance to hear the item in question without actually owning the equipment, as well as allowing those -with- the same equipment to attempt duplication. I’ll offer to host said files as I have shiploads of unused bandwidth on my account, which allows 205 Gigs a month. Anyone else who wishes to mirror these files is also more then welcome to do so.

Andrew D.
Canadian Audio Video

 

[UseName]

Quote:

Originally Posted by brainsalad /img/forum/go_quote.gif My experience has shown that believers will continue to believe and non-believers will continue to non-believe. It doesn't matter what facts and scientific principles are used to validate the non-believers, the believers will continue to say that they hear differences. Until a forum or group discussions are permitted to do accurate double blind tests (and believers participate) and publish those results will anyone budge or have the humility to accept the results and be taught.

You have to realize how much time and money believers have spent on these cables. Some of these guys take it very, very seriously and a great deal of their ego is involved. This is especially true if they were ones who have spent time A/Bing and writting reviews.

Asking them to have humility to accept the results is extremely unrealistic. It's not going to happen.

As for skeptics, well... they are the ones willing to test these things, so I guess I don't need to say much. I also think their ego is less involved as they haven't spent the same amount of time, or money.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by UseName /img/forum/go_quote.gif You have to realize how much time and money believers have spent on these cables. Some of these guys take it very, very seriously and a great deal of their ego is involved. This is especially true if they were ones who have spent time A/Bing and writting reviews. Asking them to have humility to accept the results is extremely unrealistic. It's not going to happen. As for skeptics, well... they are the ones willing to test these things, so I guess I don't need to say much. I also think their ego is less involved as they haven't spent the same amount of time, or money.

[size=xx-large]GOOD STUFF!!![/size]



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[Riboge]

You think some cables are expensive? Try having a panel of 10 people available whenever you evaluate equipment to corroborate that you did 'objectively perceive' what you hear!

Enormous Steve, at least you are now talking in terms of what's worth bothering with rather than simply asserting it doesn't exist: a just barely perceptible smidgeon of progress. Let's call that 1 bigshot or 1 bs.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riboge /img/forum/go_quote.gif You think some cables are expensive? Try having a panel of 10 people available whenever you evaluate equipment to corroborate that you did 'objectively perceive' what you hear! Enormous Steve, at least you are now talking in terms of what's worth bothering with rather than simply asserting it doesn't exist: a just barely perceptible smidgeon of progress. Let's call that 1 bigshot or 1 bs.

If a thing is not worth to be considered into the evaluation of a problem, practically talking, it doesn't exist to me....maybe is a matter of semantics, and if you want to go into semantics or philosophy that is good, but technic and science is based in practical values, otherwise nobody could afford it....

Let's take this example, you are going to build a house, and in the probabilities of unfortunate events that you will consider maybe you decided to consider events that may happen 1 in 15 years, a hurricane, an earthquake, etc....and design for that external forces, or combination of them, but if you want to consider all possible variables, and let's say, consider events that may happen 1 in 1000 years, like a glaciation, then you have a freaking bunker instead of a house!!! How much this will cost you, how much concrete or steel you may need to reinforce even the walls!!!

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif Take a second and look back at the post you're all debating: Quote: Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif I recorded the same track 3 times with the same cables and found a similar pattern of minor variations between the 3 versions it was way down , round about 0.003 to 0.009 db, peaking at 0.017db at about 21K. If you believe that differences in volume level between 0.003 dB and 0.017 dB are audible, it would mean that nick_charles's system would be generating audible differences on each playback using the same equipment. He hadn't swapped anything yet, so his post is not the equivalent of the OP's.

Correction: The differences peaked at 0.17db - I mis-remembered a decimal point, sorry. At normal listening levels this may just be marginally audible. However this difference occured when the level was at ~ -107db so may well be burried in noise anyway.

I just did a check of the Spanish harlum files, trimmed and aligned and looked at the differences

Ave difference*****0.010146047 db
min difference***** -0.00009db
Max difference*****0.197006 db

Where the difference is biggest

Freq***********left*********right*******difference

21963.86719*****-81.504868 **-81.701874*** 0.197006

So the differences I got with one cable were of the same scale as the differences with 2 cables and the biggest differences were in exactly the same place i.e with low intensity high frequency sounds.

 

[JohnFerrier]

If you can hear a pin drop 10 rows over during a rock concert performance, then, yes, maybe you can hear differences in cables.

-

Maybe more on topic, and in my mind unyielding, how about trying to amplify the "sound" of cables?


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[Riboge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sovkiller /img/forum/go_quote.gif If a thing is not worth to be considered into the evaluation of a problem, practically talking, it doesn't exist to me....maybe is a matter of semantics, and if you want to go into semantics or philosophy that is good, but technic and science is based in practical values, otherwise nobody could afford it.... Let's take this example, you are going to build a house, and in the probabilities of unfortunate events that you will consider maybe you decided to consider events that may happen 1 in 15 years, a hurricane, an earthquake, etc....and design for that external forces, or combination of them, but if you want to consider all possible variables, and let's say, consider events that may happen 1 in 1000 years, like a glaciation, then you have a freaking bunker instead of a house!!! How much this will cost you, how much concrete or steel you may need to reinforce even the walls!!!

That all makes perfect sense except for one thing that keeps being ignored (bizarrely in my estimation since it's what it is all finally about): people hear and enjoy the differences! They are not anticipating the unlikely or grasping at minutia. They hear it now, they hear it often, those with practice and skill can even carefully study and describe the differences, others take their recommendations and quite often are glad they did. It seems to me if there were something doable in a home construction that was analogous to this, you'd be foolish to ignore it.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riboge /img/forum/go_quote.gif That all makes perfect sense except for one thing that keeps being ignored (bizarrely in my estimation since it's what it is all finally about): people hear and enjoy the differences! They are not anticipating the unlikely or grasping at minutia. They hear it now, they hear it often, those with practice and skill can even carefully study and describe the differences,

With power cables or do you mean interconnects ?

 

[JohnFerrier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riboge /img/forum/go_quote.gif That all makes perfect sense except for one thing that keeps being ignored (bizarrely in my estimation since it's what it is all finally about): people hear and enjoy the differences! They are not anticipating the unlikely or grasping at minutia. They hear it now, they hear it often, those with practice and skill can even carefully study and describe the differences, others take their recommendations and quite often are glad they did. It seems to me if there were something doable in a home construction that was analogous to this, you'd be foolish to ignore it.

I'd like to know what differences in cables you hear. If I do a search on head-fi, will I find your description? (Can you provide a keyword that would aid a search?)


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[Riboge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnFerrier /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'd like to know what differences in cables you hear. If I do a search on head-fi, will I find your description? (Can you provide a keyword that would aid a search?) .

You'd best use Markl's descriptions as specimens. I am a neophyte at expressing what I hear in a way that gets across to others in a sufficiently specific way. It is a challenging skill to develop. I fall more in the category of those who have taken some of his recommendations and are glad for it. To put it another way, when I listen to ones he's described I can identify a fair bit of what he says about them.

 

[mark_h]

I'm beginging to notice a trend in these cable erm...discussions.

 

[Riboge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nick_charles /img/forum/go_quote.gif With power cables or do you mean interconnects ?

That's a good question because I, for one, am far less convinced about power cable differences being important though I do hear some and am glad to have the better ones. With interconnects and speaker cables, some of the differences I've heard are pretty darn clear and sometimes important enough to really be meaningful in terms of listening enjoyment and/or realism. Night and day, never.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yotacowboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your opinion is worth JUST AS MUCH as anyone else's here.

There's a common misconception that all opinions are created equal. This is completely wrong. Some opinions are backed up by evidence and experience and others are simply argumentative, semantic and full of logical fallacies. It's up to the person listening to make up their mind which is which. Those are the people out there who read threads like this.

See ya
Steve

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yotacowboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif See above. I have no idea whether I can hear 0.009 db difference. I also have no idea whether Steve, Mr. Bigshot, Capt. BIGSHOT, THE BIGSHOT, can hear a .009 db difference, or a 1 db difference, or a 6 db difference, or a 30 db difference. Only Mr. Steve the BIGSHOT (he is a BIGSHOT you know, he's famous!) and his audiologist can say. Steve, I think you should post the results of your next audiology exam!

Would the mods please take note of this post. If you want a perfect example of what causes these threads to veer over the line into non-productive mudslinging, you have a perfect example right here.

See ya
Steve