[Mediahound]

Originally Posted by Allanmarcus /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
There are some fairly respectable folks on head-fi that don't know why, but claim they hear a difference with certain power cables. Just read the Liquid Carbon threads and see a few. 

 
That may be because the Liquid Carbon did not original even come with a power cable. I believe some other makers do not include one either. They expect that you will purchase a 'nice' one for their amps. 

 

[Allanmarcus]

There are some fairly respectable folks on head-fi that don't know why, but claim they hear a difference with certain power cables. Just read the Liquid Carbon threads and see a few. 

That may be because the Liquid Carbon did not original even come with a power cable. I believe some other makers do not include one either. They expect that you will purchase a 'nice' one for their amps. 

True, but some people test both inexpensive and 100 9 AWG cables, and swear the $100 cable sounds better.

 

[Mediahound]

True, but some people test both inexpensive and 100 9 AWG cables, and swear the $100 cable sounds better.

A 9AWG cable is totally ridiculous on a headphone amp drawing what, maximum 40 watts, if that? 
 
I am however convinced that power cables can make audible difference, after hearing and testing them myself. I choose to trust my ears over what others say. That said, I would never spend more than $100 on one though. 

 

[Allanmarcus]

True, but some people test both inexpensive and 100 9 AWG cables, and swear the $100 cable sounds better.

A 9AWG cable is totally ridiculous on a headphone amp drawing what, maximum 40 watts, if that? 

I am however convinced that power cables can make audible difference, after hearing and testing them myself. I choose to trust my ears over what others say. That said, I would never spend more than $100 on one though. 

Ok, I gotta ask. Did you blind test the cable?

 

[gregorio]

  I choose to trust my ears over what others say.

 
And BINGO, there we have it, the fundamental irrationality which afflicts all extreme audiophiles! No that being rational is usually effective against the irrational but maybe the OP has not yet been fully infected by the irrational. Therefore:
 
1. You have never heard your ears! All you have EVER heard is your brain's interpretation (perception) of what your ears "hear".
 
2. To what are you listening which has made you trust your perception of hearing? It's obviously NOT any audio content (music recordings, TV or films) you've ever purchased because they absolutely rely on the fact that your perception of hearing is not trustworthy! If your hearing were trustworthy; you would never hear the stereo effect, you would rarely hear a rock or pop band, when you watched a film, you would hear the sound as being unrelated to the picture, etc.
 
Effectively, what you are saying is that: You choose to trust something you have never heard or experienced, you choose instead to trust a perception which is oblivious to the fact that it's under an almost constant state of induced delusion and you choose not to believe the people or the science which actually induces that delusion!?
 
G

 

[Allanmarcus]

I choose to trust my ears over what others say. That said, I would never spend more than $100 on one though. 

I completely agree. The only way to trust you ears is to blank out the other senses, thus a blind test. Anything else and you are trusting more that your ears.

 

[Mediahound]

Everyone should trust their own ears and own experience. Anything else is just trusting what others say over your own experience, so it's completely imagined and heresay, versus your own actual experience. 

There are numerous postings on Head-Fi from people saying that they were total non-believers before and then they tried some upgraded power cable (or USB cable) and were blown away by the improvements. For whatever reasons, they hear and enjoy the improvement, and that should be enough for you. 
 
If someone tells you riding on a roller coaster is not fun, but you see tons of others enjoying it, you can't logically go telling others it's not fun and to avoid it, unless you yourself have tried it and can then relay your own experience.  Yet, that is what you are doing here. 

 

[Allanmarcus]

  Everyone should trust their own ears and own experience. Anything else is just trusting what others say over your own experience, so it's completely imagined and heresay, versus your own actual experience. 

There are numerous postings on Head-Fi from people saying that they were total non-believers before and then they tried some upgraded power cable and were blown away by the improvements. For whatever reasons, they hear and enjoy the improvement, and that should be enough for you. 
 
If someone tells you riding on a roller coaster is not fun, but you see tons of others enjoying it, you can't logically go telling others it's not fun and to avoid it, unless you yourself have tried it and can then relay your own experience.  Yet, that is what you are doing here. 

OK, thanks. You confirm what I said in my original post. "The common answer is "try it and see" (OK, try it and hear)", but my original question was is there a way to objectively test a cable to the properties that may make it help product better sound? Clearly a few on this thread do not feel it's possible, since they don't see how a cable could affect sound (except a very poorly designed one, or a cable designed to alter the power is such a way as to color the sound). And there are those that feel a power cable can have an affect. This long running argument is the objectivists vs the subjectivists. I was hoping to avoid that discussion and focus on ways to test.
 
I'm an objectivist. if I cannot tell the sonic difference between two audio sounds in a blind test, I don't see any different between them. Unfortunately, I really don't trust comments about comparing two quality products unless there has been some sort of blind test. I also don't understand people's reluctance to perform them. Yes, the militant objectivist will say the subjectivists are scared of the results. No need to argue down that road.  

 

[Ruben123]

Those must be the famous *night and day differences* lol!!

 

[Mediahound]

 
OK, thanks. You confirm what I said in my original post. "The common answer is "try it and see" (OK, try it and hear)", but my original question was is there a way to objectively test a cable to the properties that may make it help product better sound? Clearly a few on this thread do not feel it's possible, since they don't see how a cable could affect sound (except a very poorly designed one, or a cable designed to alter the power is such a way as to color the sound). And there are those that feel a power cable can have an affect. This long running argument is the objectivists vs the subjectivists. I was hoping to avoid that discussion and focus on ways to test.
 
I'm an objectivist. if I cannot tell the sonic difference between two audio sounds in a blind test, I don't see any different between them. Unfortunately, I really don't trust comments about comparing two quality products unless there has been some sort of blind test. I also don't understand people's reluctance to perform them. Yes, the militant objectivist will say the subjectivists are scared of the results. No need to argue down that road.  

 
The blind test does not tell you everything. Let's say you hear a difference and you know a new cable is installed because you not only hear it but also see it (or someone tells you it's been installed). This is still part of your human experience and if it's in an improvement to you, why discount that?
 
Or, in same scenario, you may notice no difference. Both scenarios are part of your own experience and should not be discounted. What should be discounted is others telling you about it one way or the other,  without you having actually heard it for yourself. 

 

[Allanmarcus]

 

 
OK, thanks. You confirm what I said in my original post. "The common answer is "try it and see" (OK, try it and hear)", but my original question was is there a way to objectively test a cable to the properties that may make it help product better sound? Clearly a few on this thread do not feel it's possible, since they don't see how a cable could affect sound (except a very poorly designed one, or a cable designed to alter the power is such a way as to color the sound). And there are those that feel a power cable can have an affect. This long running argument is the objectivists vs the subjectivists. I was hoping to avoid that discussion and focus on ways to test.
 
I'm an objectivist. if I cannot tell the sonic difference between two audio sounds in a blind test, I don't see any different between them. Unfortunately, I really don't trust comments about comparing two quality products unless there has been some sort of blind test. I also don't understand people's reluctance to perform them. Yes, the militant objectivist will say the subjectivists are scared of the results. No need to argue down that road.  

 
The blind test does not tell you everything. Let's say you hear a difference and you know a new cable is installed because you not only hear it but also see it (or someone tells you it's been installed). This is still part of your human experience and if it's in an improvement to you, why discount that?
 
Or, in same scenario, you may notice no difference. Both scenarios are part of your own experience and should not be discounted. What should be discounted is others telling you about it one way or the other,  without you having actually heard it for yourself. 

Sure, but that is not what the discussion is about. The discussion is about any way to test for qualities that have been determined to help produce better sound. 
 
I do not believe there is any way something can sound better bases upon the physical appearance of the cable. Sure, you might think it sounds better, but that really means nothing to me unless it actually sounds better. I have limited money, and i want to spend it on ways to improve the sound, or improve the comfort when listing to sounds. Sure, there is an aspect to any hobby about perception, but I know my headphones will not sound better with a red cable over  a black one, no matter how much I like the color red.
 
My wife wanted a new washer/dryer a few years back. She really wanted red one. The red ones were $50/each more. My first question was "will the red one clean better or dry faster?" She knows me and said "Yes, of course!" I shook my head and now we have red laundry machines. We both know they don't work any better than the white one, but she wanted red for a better laundry room experience. I can understand that. 
 
My power cables are behind my desk. I don't see them. Having a pretty cable, for me, will not enhance my listening experience. Now if one cable colors the sounds less by providing a cleaner conduit, and that is audible, then that makes sense. I am willing to trust the results of a blind test of that, but I'm not willing to trust non-blind impressions. So, to your point about not trusting others, I do trust science, but I take impressions with a grain of salt.  

 

[Mediahound]

   Now if one cable colors the sounds less by providing a cleaner conduit, and that is audible, then that makes sense. I am willing to trust the results of a blind test of that, but I'm not willing to trust non-blind impressions. So, to your point about not trusting others, I do trust science, but I take impressions with a grain of salt.  

 
The problem with that is that everyone hears differently. The cable that provides 'a cleaner conduit that is audible' would sound (for example) way too bright and harsh to one guy but absolutely sublime to the guy right next to him.
 
Listening/hearing is a subjective human experience, not only something you can measure.

 

[CanadianMaestro]

Perceptual bias will always be a sticking point for hi-end audio and its many claims of sonic "improvement". Cables and otherwise.
 
For a power cable, I would expect that measuring instantaneous current delivery could be done to assess its performance.

 

[gregorio]

  This long running argument is the objectivists vs the subjectivists. I was hoping to avoid that discussion and focus on ways to test.

 
What you don't seem to understand is that by asking your question there was no way of avoiding that long running argument because there is no way to test for something which only exists in some extremist audiophiles' perception! In other words, asking "how to test" explicitly implies that there is something there which can or could be tested. This will inevitably bring bunch of crackpot audiophiles out of the woodwork to affirm there is something there (but science hasn't found a way to measure it yet) and a bunch of others who point out there is no audible difference and nothing to test. Either way, you are never going to get an answer to your question of "how to test"! All you can possibly get is a continuation of the argument.
 
And by the way, it really isn't a long running argument. It's only a long running argument caused by a very small minority of crackpot audiophiles. This argument does not exist and has never existed on pro audio forums for example.
 
G

 

[sonitus mirus]

We already know that that with power cables there should not be any noticeable audible difference that humans could identify that would not otherwise be shown through common measurements.  Human hearing limitations are well documented and the math on a power cable's influence on sonic parameters can be deduced from the physical properties.
 
I can't think of a better way to attempt to prove the intangibles except through double-blind listening tests.  
 
This is the sound science forum.  Unless there is a better method suggested to test for any audible difference, please provide your ABX results or provide references to some tests that we can discuss. 
 
All anecdotal references are basically worthless, no matter how many people believe they are hearing differences.  If all that matters is what I think I'm hearing, than for me, I enjoy my music sitting in a comfortable chair.  Some people enjoy expensive power cables.  Both have the same impact on sound quality.  I'm sure I can get someone to confirm it.