[RCBinTN]

 
Thanks for your thoughts. While I lean heavily on agreeing with you, I would like to hear from others on the matter. I think your vehement opposition to those that feel (and I use that word deliberately) that cables, specifically power cables, can make a difference for sound quality may making them reluctant to post. You have made your position very clear, and I thank you. If others would like to chime in, I'm sure we would like to hear what they would like to say with fear of invalidating their beliefs.

 
Hi All,
 
I was trying to decide whether upgrade the power cables on my home rig:  Gungnir Multibit - Bryston BHA-1 - HD800.  The rig already sounded very good; all components/cables have hundreds of hours on them.  I decided to canvas the folks mainly on the GMB thread, and of course got mixed feedback on the idea.  I decided to proceed.
 
The new power cables are the Kimber Kable PK-14 with the standard plugs, for the DAC and amp.  The new cables improved the sound that I hear from the rig.  I can't describe this very well, but the music seems to be presented in a more effortless manner.  Smoother and clearer.  I really think it makes the DAC work better, in that the instrument definition has improved.  The cymbals really shimmer now.
 
I have no idea why these cables make the music sound better, but I know what I hear.
 
FWIW, my wife confirmed the improvement.  Her favorite album is "Going Places" by Allen Toussaint.  The PK-14 make this piano jazz sound very different - more midrange and clear definition of Allen's piano, plus the very focused sound of the jazz drum kit.
 
Net - a nice upgrade that I'm happy with.  All of course IMHO and YMMV.
 
I know I am now a target, but please feel free to swing by the house and listen for yourselves.
 
All the Best -
RCBinTN

 

[Allanmarcus]

 

Is it possible that some people, a very small few, have good enough hearing that they can hear minute differences? I know I've done blind tests with DACs with my son and he can hear a slight difference between two DACs, but I cannot. My theory is that some people have really good sense of smell, some have really good sight, and some have really good hearing.

Real audiophiles LOVE to say that they have better hearing than other people. Fact is many don't, most even have worse hearing because of their hearing damage caused by listening to loud music (to hear more dynamics...).

What? Sorry, had to turn down the music. I couldn't hear you

 

[Allanmarcus]

 

 
Thanks for your thoughts. While I lean heavily on agreeing with you, I would like to hear from others on the matter. I think your vehement opposition to those that feel (and I use that word deliberately) that cables, specifically power cables, can make a difference for sound quality may making them reluctant to post. You have made your position very clear, and I thank you. If others would like to chime in, I'm sure we would like to hear what they would like to say with fear of invalidating their beliefs.

 
Hi All,
 
I was trying to decide whether upgrade the power cables on my home rig:  Gungnir Multibit - Bryston BHA-1 - HD800.  The rig already sounded very good; all components/cables have hundreds of hours on them.  I decided to canvas the folks mainly on the GMB thread, and of course got mixed feedback on the idea.  I decided to proceed.
 
The new power cables are the Kimber Kable PK-14 with the standard plugs, for the DAC and amp.  The new cables improved the sound that I hear from the rig.  I can't describe this very well, but the music seems to be presented in a more effortless manner.  Smoother and clearer.  I really think it makes the DAC work better, in that the instrument definition has improved.  The cymbals really shimmer now.
 
I have no idea why these cables make the music sound better, but I know what I hear.
 
FWIW, my wife confirmed the improvement.  Her favorite album is "Going Places" by Allen Toussaint.  The PK-14 make this piano jazz sound very different - more midrange and clear definition of Allen's piano, plus the very focused sound of the jazz drum kit.
 
Net - a nice upgrade that I'm happy with.  All of course IMHO and YMMV.
 
I know I am now a target, but please feel free to swing by the house and listen for yourselves.
 
All the Best -
RCBinTN

Thanks very much for your post. I hope people here will respect your opinions.
 
One question that is bound to come up. When you and your wife listened, did you try for a blind A/B test? Ideally if you or your wife can tell the difference between the cables 6 out of 6 times, that would say with 98% confidence the there is a difference. If you listen to it once and you know which cables are being used, you cannot rule out "buyer's bias". 
 
If you can convince her to do the test (offer to take hr out to dinner, and not just McDonald's!), we would love to read the results. 
 
Any chance you have a multi meter? I wonder if you can test the impedance of the cables to see if there is a difference. 

 

[defbear]

Hi All,

I was trying to decide whether upgrade the power cables on my home rig:  Gungnir Multibit - Bryston BHA-1 - HD800.  The rig already sounded very good; all components/cables have hundreds of hours on them.  I decided to canvas the folks mainly on the GMB thread, and of course got mixed feedback on the idea.  I decided to proceed.

The new power cables are the Kimber Kable PK-14 with the standard plugs, for the DAC and amp.  The new cables improved the sound that I hear from the rig.  I can't describe this very well, but the music seems to be presented in a more effortless manner.  Smoother and clearer.  I really think it makes the DAC work better, in that the instrument definition has improved.  The cymbals really shimmer now.

I have no idea why these cables make the music sound better, but I know what I hear.

FWIW, my wife confirmed the improvement.  Her favorite album is "Going Places" by Allen Toussaint.  The PK-14 make this piano jazz sound very different - more midrange and clear definition of Allen's piano, plus the very focused sound of the jazz drum kit.

Net - a nice upgrade that I'm happy with.  All of course IMHO and YMMV.

I know I am now a target, but please feel free to swing by the house and listen for yourselves.

All the Best -
RCBinTN

It's ok. You can hide behind me. I bought the big Pangea AC-9 MK 2 cable and I hear a difference. But I can't recommend anyone buy a souped up power cable. I'm not purchasing another of these monsters. And I can't say I could pick the cable every time in a test. But my Wife did. Using my HDVD800 amp and a set of hd800's. When I used the big Pangea her comment was 'Whatever you are doing now, it sounds fuller'. My Master 11 benefited from a setup of Supra cables and their shielded six outlet power block.
There definitely is an emotional component to it. Some persons might feel 'Safe' and that 'I've done what I could'.

 

[Allanmarcus]

Somehow I ended up with a 14 AWG x 3 power cable for my DACCord and man, it's thick and inflexible. I can't even image how a 9 AWG wold feel. Possible like connect a stick tot he back of the device.

 

[RCBinTN]

 
Thanks very much for your post. I hope people here will respect your opinions.
 
One question that is bound to come up. When you and your wife listened, did you try for a blind A/B test? Ideally if you or your wife can tell the difference between the cables 6 out of 6 times, that would say with 98% confidence the there is a difference. If you listen to it once and you know which cables are being used, you cannot rule out "buyer's bias". 
 
If you can convince her to do the test (offer to take hr out to dinner, and not just McDonald's!), we would love to read the results. 
 
Any chance you have a multi meter? I wonder if you can test the impedance of the cables to see if there is a difference. 

 
Thanks, mate, I was expecting questions.
 
I am a SSBB so understand the question - to test the null hypothesis that "the cables are the same."  I am surprised you would accept six data points for 98% confidence, but I'll have to go back to my Dan Wheeler books.
 
Anyway, we didn't perform an A/B test on the cables, for two reasons :
1) We already put the old cables away, for sale (really low price - $2 each),
2) The output measurement is not objective, it's purely subjective.
 
Just IMO,
RCB

 

[defbear]

Somehow I ended up with a 14 AWG x 3 power cable for my DACCord and man, it's thick and inflexible. I can't even image how a 9 AWG wold feel. Possible like connect a stick tot he back of the device.

The 9 is just ridiculous. I managed to curve it enough to use with my Master 11 and Supra block. The Master 11 is too heavy for the cable to lift

 

[Allanmarcus]

l

 

 
Thanks very much for your post. I hope people here will respect your opinions.
 
One question that is bound to come up. When you and your wife listened, did you try for a blind A/B test? Ideally if you or your wife can tell the difference between the cables 6 out of 6 times, that would say with 98% confidence the there is a difference. If you listen to it once and you know which cables are being used, you cannot rule out "buyer's bias". 
 
If you can convince her to do the test (offer to take hr out to dinner, and not just McDonald's!), we would love to read the results. 
 
Any chance you have a multi meter? I wonder if you can test the impedance of the cables to see if there is a difference. 

 
Thanks, mate, I was expecting questions.
 
I am a SSBB so understand the question - to test the null hypothesis that "the cables are the same."  I am surprised you would accept six data points for 98% confidence, but I'll have to go back to my Dan Wheeler books.
 
Anyway, we didn't perform an A/B test on the cables, for two reasons :
1) We already put the old cables away, for sale (really low price - $2 each),
2) The output measurement is not objective, it's purely subjective.
 
Just IMO,
RCB

OK, no problem.
 
Here's how I arrived at 98%. There's a 50% chance if guessing correctly. To guess 50% correctly 6 times in a row, is .5 ^ 6 = .015625, or .02 with rounding. So, there is a .02 chance of guessing a 50% chance right 6 times in a row (I think), therefore if one can do it, then 1 - .02 = 98% 
 
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it! 

 

[RCBinTN]

  l

OK, no problem.
 
Here's how I arrived at 98%. There's a 50% chance if guessing correctly. To guess 50% correctly 6 times in a row, is .5 ^ 6 = .015625, or .02 with rounding. So, there is a .02 chance of guessing a 50% chance right 6 times in a row (I think), therefore if one can do it, then 1 - .02 = 98% 
 
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it! 

 
Makes sense when explained that way.  Thank you.

 

[Mediahound]

Here's a blind test done several years ago: http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html
 
Results? On average, they could not tell the difference even between super expensive Nordost power cable and the one that came with the equipment. 
 
That said, a few of the people could fairly reliably tell a difference (within 70-80 percent of the time). So, if you're someone who generally can notice changes in micro details, etc., getting a nice power cable may be something you will notice an improvement for. 
 
I however don't believe in going overboard and spending more than about $100 on a power cable because even if you notice a difference, it will be subtle.
 
Regarding Pangea, the AC9 is totally overkill unless you are powering big monoblock amps. 

 

[gregorio]

 
That said, a few of the people could fairly reliably tell a difference (within 70-80 percent of the time).

 
You are misrepresenting both the actual figures AND what those figures mean!
 
The two highest scores were 60% and 70%. If we were to replace those audiophiles in the test with monkeys (or rig the test some other way), so that random guessing were the ONLY possible option, we would NOT find all the monkeys scoring exactly 50%! With a perfectly random test, the average would be around 50% but some of the monkeys would score significantly higher and some lower. With a much bigger group of monkeys (randomly guessing) we are even likely to find one or more who score 10% or 90%, although the average would still be 50%. Random guessing produces a bell curve distribution of results, not an exact 50% every time. In other words, one person in the test group scoring 60% and another 70% is ENTIRELY consistent with random guessing! It does NOT indicate they could "fairly reliably" tell a difference and even more obviously, it doesn't mean they could tell a difference 70-80% of the time!!
 
However, to be fair, the result also does NOT prove that those two individuals were not able to do better than just randomly guessing. If it were me, I would have taken the highest scorer, had them re-run the test a number of times and then averaged their results. If he/she were able to maintain (or improve) their score, that would tend to indicate they could "fairly reliably" tell a difference. If their average dropped though, that would indicate their first 70% score was just the standard deviation expected of random guessing.
 
Despite being audiophiles and obviously initially biased towards an audible difference existing, their conclusion was: "Using the blind ABX protocol, we failed to hear any differences between an assortment of generic power cords and Nordost Valhalla. Therefore, we cannot conclude that different power cords produce a difference using the blind ABX protocol." - Their actual conclusion is significantly different to the conclusion you are effectively ascribing to it! Why is that? Is this just another typical example of an audiophile deliberately lying/misrepresenting the facts to support their own flawed belief? I can't be absolutely sure, it might just have been an honest mistake quoting the figures AND an ignorance of the existence of standard deviation in random guessing.
 
G

 

[defbear]

I don't think I can hear the same thing the same way twice.

 

[castleofargh]

 an electrical circuit must be taken as the entire loop to understand what really happens. behind the wall outlet there is basic copper electrical cable of whatever length, getting into any audio device, we will almost immediately run into a transformer, which is a basic coil of relatively copper, and then into some cheap wire directly into a circuit board and whatever components. so what should be the role or impact of the power cable in between? well basically to extend the circuit into the audio device, and to not ruin the current flow more than it already is. the first part is obvious, the second is crazy easy given what's before and after it. so investing money in power cable... well I hope they're pretty.
 
so if 2 cables really end up changing the sound of an audio system, then at least one cable is not doing a its cable job(true for all cables). not saying there will never be audible difference, because the easiest way to get an audible difference is to mess with the signal. the traditional, "let's do it wrong and sell it as audiophile improvement".
some do really weird stuff and pretend to pioneer a tech, but in the end the few trying to actually "improve" the signal stop at keeping the impedance low(big wire diameter or multiple pass of a smaller one), and maybe fool around with an added capacitor to make a low pass filter. but a low pass filter is clearly beyond what a cable is supposed to do, and even if for some reason a nasty high frequency noise is in the electrical signal and the low pass helps some audio device, last I checked soldering a capacitor didn't cost hundreds of dollars. and in any case, it could be implemented in the audio device instead of some power cable pretending to do magic for a high price.
 
 
about doing AB tests, anybody who looked a little into it will suggest to do at least 10 runs. but of course other things come into play, like deciding the number in advance, not getting the answer after each run, having someone with an OK poker face changing the cables, etc.
but it's not even all that important if there really is a clear audible difference. what surprises me is how someone can pay for a device, and not be interested in what it actually does. I mean a DAC turns digital into analog, a voltage amp will let us change the gain, the headphone turns electricity into sound, but what is the job of an "audio" power cable? to make euphonic 50hz or 60hz? shield that very part of the circuit (let's forget about all the crap in the wall)? where is the evidence of a change and where is the evidence that it is an improvement?
people who buy such products but don't need those answers, I fail to empathize with them. don't get me wrong, there are plenty of things I do not care about, but then I really don't. I'm not going to pay a few hundred bucks for something that doesn't trigger at least a little curiosity. and once I'm curious about something, well I want to know what it's really doing and what I'm paying for. the only time I'm interested yet don't want to know is when seeing magic tricks.

 

[Allanmarcus]

   an electrical circuit must be taken as the entire loop to understand what really happens. behind the wall outlet there is basic copper electrical cable of whatever length, getting into any audio device, we will almost immediately run into a transformer, which is a basic coil of relatively copper, and then into some cheap wire directly into a circuit board and whatever components. so what should be the role or impact of the power cable in between? well basically to extend the circuit into the audio device, and to not ruin the current flow more than it already is. the first part is obvious, the second is crazy easy given what's before and after it. so investing money in power cable... well I hope they're pretty.
 
so if 2 cables really end up changing the sound of an audio system, then at least one cable is not doing a its cable job(true for all cables). not saying there will never be audible difference, because the easiest way to get an audible difference is to mess with the signal. the traditional, "let's do it wrong and sell it as audiophile improvement".
some do really weird stuff and pretend to pioneer a tech, but in the end the few trying to actually "improve" the signal stop at keeping the impedance low(big wire diameter or multiple pass of a smaller one), and maybe fool around with an added capacitor to make a low pass filter. but a low pass filter is clearly beyond what a cable is supposed to do, and even if for some reason a nasty high frequency noise is in the electrical signal and the low pass helps some audio device, last I checked soldering a capacitor didn't cost hundreds of dollars. and in any case, it could be implemented in the audio device instead of some power cable pretending to do magic for a high price.
 
 
about doing AB tests, anybody who looked a little into it will suggest to do at least 10 runs. but of course other things come into play, like deciding the number in advance, not getting the answer after each run, having someone with an OK poker face changing the cables, etc.
but it's not even all that important if there really is a clear audible difference. what surprises me is how someone can pay for a device, and not be interested in what it actually does. I mean a DAC turns digital into analog, a voltage amp will let us change the gain, the headphone turns electricity into sound, but what is the job of an "audio" power cable? to make euphonic 50hz or 60hz? shield that very part of the circuit (let's forget about all the crap in the wall)? where is the evidence of a change and where is the evidence that it is an improvement?
people who buy such products but don't need those answers, I fail to empathize with them. don't get me wrong, there are plenty of things I do not care about, but then I really don't. I'm not going to pay a few hundred bucks for something that doesn't trigger at least a little curiosity. and once I'm curious about something, well I want to know what it's really doing and what I'm paying for. the only time I'm interested yet don't want to know is when seeing magic tricks.

Very nice post, and I agree. A few questions come up, though. You point out that if a cable introduces noise, that is generally bad. Any way to test for that? Any way to determine the most appropriate AWG of wire for a particular device (probably based on power draw, I assume)? Any way to determine is shielding on the power cable is accurate?
 
There are some fairly respectable folks on head-fi that don't know why, but claim they hear a difference with certain power cables. Just read the Liquid Carbon threads and see a few. 

 

[castleofargh]

shielding a power cable looks like a bad idea to me. unless you start going for stuff large as my arm so that the shield can be far away from the cable, but then it's just increasing by that much the surface picking up EMI and other stuff. so not only I don't see the point, I imagine it's actually a bad thing in most cases.  IMO if significant noise is added to the electrical signal power, it will come from something else, other devices running on the same line or stuff like that. when I turn ON the light in my bathroom, the caps lock on my keyboard lights up for a sec^_^ super audiophile!!!!!
 
about AWG, the wire for a house is 14 or 12 I would guess that's about it everywhere? that should already allow for more than a thousand watt. bigger diameter shouldn't hurt but is also unnecessary for most homes.
and to have the optimal power cable, I imagine the actual best option would be to have the same stuff running in the wall. solid copper wire, no shielding, no nothing, for devices that don't have to move, it seems like the logical choice, limiting the difference with the rest of the house, and probably insignificantly better than random cheap braided power cable of the same diameter. so really nothing fancy ^_^.
 
if you have several cables, you could try to check a few stuff with a multimeter, to look for obvious differences. or if you have a good soundcard input, plug the output of your amp into the input of the soundcard, and record a RMAA test with different cables. but that isn't supposed to show much if any difference(because a power cable shouldn't matter in the first place!).so I would consider it to check for defective stuff more than anything else. the principle could work for any cable or any device when you have several of a kind. and if you really have a great soundcard then more stuff are possible(I'm not in that situation

).