[fewtch]

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Originally posted by pigmode How are people who have spent good money on PCs supposed to interpret your use of the term "snake oil"?

As my personal opinion regarding expensive power cords -- nothing more, nothing less.
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Then when markl called you on that, you got hissy and said you were through posting.

How can you call someone on their opinions? Are opinions subject to being wrong or right? It's the way someone feels about something. As far as I'm concerned, I'm entitled to my opinions no matter how I came by them. If one stranger's opinion is enough to really disturb someone, then maybe they're feeling insecure about their purchase.

BTW, unless one is prone to confuse opinion with fact, one person's opinion never steps on another's... that's the nature of opinions, they constitute individual viewpoints and everyone has a right to hold one, whatever it may be. What markl did was state that my opinion is uninformed by actual listening, and what can I say? It's true. But it's informed by what I know about electronics and physics, so is a different sort of information. Whether someone feels it's valid or invalid is up to them.

 

[Sovkiller]

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Originally posted by Stoney My speculation on power cables is that there may be two main issues. 1. Power Cords can act as antennas and as capacitors, both resulting in pick up of RF noise from the environment. As you may know from poor audio equipment, the world is full of radio stations, and even moreso, of noise sources. These, especially RF carriers, can be easily picked up by power cables acting as antennas. Power cords can also pick up noise capacitively. As one writer (forget which) said recently, that is the wrong way to look at it. It is not the "last 2 meters;" it is the "first 2 meters." Now, we treat power supplies as if they are perfect, similar to the way we treat electrical components as "lumped parameters." But we know that resistors and capacitors can be inductive, that capacitors need to be bypassed at high frequencies, for example. Similarly, power supplies do not reject all the noise coming up the power line. This includes the RF noise picked up by the "last" 2 meters of cable, which is coupled with low impedance into the power supply, but with relatively high impedance to the AC power transformer miles away. So, the noise couples nicely into the amplifier's power supply, and right into the amplifier (or DAC, or turntable motor). This noise intermodulates easily into the audio spectrum that we are listening to. IIRC, Hi Fi News and Record Review published graphs showing how this noise modulates strongly or weakly into numerous components under test, and showed at least some correlation with sound quality (can't remember if it was Martin Colloms or perhaps another whose name escapes me this morning). This is how twisting and shielding can have such significant effects. Any property, including dielectric, can affect how RF is coupled into the equipment or otherwise reflected or shunted to ground. Connectors can also serve as points of reflection or susceptibility. Consider how significant something like ERS cloth (or a microwave oven tray... try it) can have one some cables and components -- this simply shows how much RF is present and how benficial a bit of shielding can be. 2. Cables are inductive to varying degrees. Just as we make this mistake with interconnects and speaker cables, we think of power cables as mere "conductors," perfect ones at that. As demands from the amp and from other equipment on the same line changes (which it does at frequencies ranging well up into the audio band), inductance in these cables resists changes in current flow. An amplifier will demand current at certain moments, but the current won't be available right away because of inductance. Of course this affects sound quality, as we all know. Now, I'm not saying that there isn't "snake oil" in audio, far from it. Even valid products are accompanied by marketing verbiage that is, to say the least, taking poetic license. We could have our own version of the IgNobel prize (the Pulitzer or pure-****s-er prize?) for marketing hype in audio. Frankly, many superior designers don't know why their products work well, at least at first; they learn from experimentation (as should we). But, those who dismiss the benefits of power cables, at least in certain settings, may simply be revealing two types of ignorance: having never tried it, and having inadequate theoretical understanding or experimental experience in electrical engineering. "Common sense" can be inadequate; that is why we have technical specialists.

Nice talking and I do not want ot discuss about it now, but sorry I do not agree 100%, and I will state a few other points, first the EMI and RF issues could be attenuated with just a ferrite core around the cable, as I do, and as Jude does, most of the cables are twisted inside the proper way, and yes they are in fact the last two meters of the cable, and it was correctly stated, we are talking about the power line, not the power supply of the equipment in question, and as the energy flows form the place which have more energy, to the point that has less, and as your equipment has no energy when hooked, I believe that they are receiving the energy from the outlet, not giving it, so you got the last piece of cable in the place where you receive it, AFAIK....

About the second part if you have a proper designed power supply you will not have this lack of power as a result of the inductance, of the last two meters of the cable, what about if the inductance is so big on the line that is is not capable of supplying this demand, does the last two meters will help on that, that is simply ridiculous, if you or any other member hear any difference in a power cable is OK with me, and maybe is valid and possible, but please, do not try to explain it or these improvements, with the current laws of physics we already know, as simply it is not possible, nobody has been able to do it, if not those improvements, were facts, and not considered as subjective issues for many others, OK? And we were not arguing here instead, and all of us were using those expensive cables instead of the ones we have.....IMO maybe what cause those effects are, as someone stated once, any other parameter that we are not measuring, and that maybe we do not even know about them, or the combination of many of them, but not those like capacitance or inductance, or resistance, all of the power cords, are design to meet, at least, with those, OK?

 

[00940]

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Originally posted by fewtch The differences you describe sound to me like the result of cleaner power being delivered to the equipment.

I didn't say anything about the reasons. All i know is what WE heard and noone in the room disagreed (15-20 guys total, some gf too). I don't give a **** about "reasons" if that's audible.

edit : btw the worst cable had a ferrite, big loss in dynamics

 

[pigmode]

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Originally posted by fewtch As my personal opinion regarding expensive power cords -- nothing more, nothing less. How can you call someone on their opinions? Are opinions subject to being wrong or right? It's the way someone feels about something. As far as I'm concerned, I'm entitled to my opinions no matter how I came by them... if someone doesn't like it, tough beans. If one stranger's opinion is enough to really disturb someone, then maybe they're feeling insecure about their purchase.

You weren't called simply for having an opinion, you were called for stating an opinion on a potentially controverial subject without stating your real world experience.

 

[fewtch]

The above replied via PM, this is getting out of hand and way off topic. Anyone else bothered by (or wish to discuss) my opinions? Drop me a PM. Now back to the regularly scheduled programming...

 

[Sovkiller]

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Originally posted by 00940 I didn't say anything about the reasons. All i know is what WE heard and noone in the room disagreed (15-20 guys total, some gf too). I don't give a **** about "reasons" if that's audible. edit : btw the worst cable had a ferrite, big loss in dynamics

And maybe I would do also. and I would be the 21st. BTW I did not, between on the Quail and a regular one, but maybe with a more expensive one, I do, I'm always open to try, if is free......but this improvement has no explanation to the date, is not due the capacitance, or inductance, or resistance, or copper, or silver, or length, or thickness, at least not with the parameters we already know, or maybe it is but has not being proved yet, till now, it is a myth in which WE believe, or WE don't, simple as that....what I'm trying to say, is that the date you could state a reason, and prove it, it becomes a fact, instead of a myth, or subjective opinion, even when generalized like this one....and please do not misunderstood me, I'm not trying to encourage anybody to prove it, even when it could be interesting, it is just a point of view, as valid, or not, as any other.....

 

[Anders]

I think many of you guys oversees have not seen an European power plug for wall outlets. One of the most common is called Schuko and is shown below. Schuko is used in Germany and some other countries. This is an audiophile one with gold plated connectors.
There are two power pins and the earth is on the body. It is possible to insert it reversed which is both an advantage and disadvantage. It is an advantage if not all equipment is phased in the same way, then you can reverse the plug for best phase.

You have to click below:

 

[Sovkiller]

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Originally posted by Anders I think many of you guys oversees have not seen an European power plug for wall outlets. One of the most common is called Schuko and is shown below. Schuko is used in Germany and some other countries. This is an audiophile one with gold plated connectors. There are two power pins and the earth is on the body. It is possible to insert it reversed which is both an advantage and disadvantage. It is an advantage if not all equipment is phased in the same way, then you can reverse the plug for best phase. You have to click below:

I was in Germany the last summer, in a friend's house, and I know how is a cable there, even I own some of them, what happen is that "Earth" is a big place to live, and we mainly here are located in US, if you place "Earth" as a location, is little difficult to figure out in which part of the planet you live, that is why he argue with that other fellow headfier about the reverse polarity stuff

 

[Stoney]

Fewtch questioned: Quote:

How can you call someone on their opinions? Are opinions subject to being wrong or right? It's the way someone feels about something. As far as I'm concerned, I'm entitled to my opinions no matter how I came by them. If one stranger's opinion is enough to really disturb someone, then maybe they're feeling insecure about their purchase.

So, you are declaring yourself to be someone who has opinions with no basis in reality? I think most of us figured that out when you attacked users of a headphone without actually having heard it.

Those who listen for themselves often switch their tune. Like Elaine on Seinfeld said after tasting, "OK, the soup is worth it. I've got to sit down...."

You may not share in the same purpose of most here. We aren't interested in ungrounded opinions, but in grounded assessments*.

* For more of what follows, read up on speech act theory, and hermeneutics. Try the book Understanding Computers and Cognition, a New Foundation for Design by Fernando Flores and Terry Winograd. I studied with Fernando Flores -- some of his work is paraphrased below. (Fernando was once the minister of government owned industries under the Alliende government in Chile, and after being freed from prison by Amnesty International and the US State Department... he was with Alliende when the later was shot and overthrown... Fernando went on to get a dual PhD from Berkeley in artificial intelligence and philosophy of language. So he is qualified!) ;^)

An assessment is like an assertion, but it is not a simple observation like "the cat is on the mat." An assertion is "factual" or not. An assessment is "valid" or not.

An assessment is an interpretation made (a) for some purpose, (b) based on appropriate information and observations, (c) by someone qualified to make that interpretation.

The purpose in (a) may be to advance technical understanding of the engineering or science involved, or to dialog for that purpose, to educate, or simply to help someone in making a cost-effective purchase.

The basis in (b) may be listening to multiple products and/or talking with designers and other professionals who have investigated the phenomenon (not just hyped it, but on a search for truth).

The qualifications in (c) include a background in the technology, a methodology that can validly result in useful conclusions tha tstand the tst of time, and a level of cognitive complexity capable of holding the necessary details.

If you want to engage in ungrounded "chatter" and call it opinion, maybe you should say "this is how I feel." Otherwise, people think you are actually saying something. ;^)

sovkiller wrote this dismissive run-on sentence: Quote:

About the second part if you have a proper designed power supply you will not have this lack of power as a result of the inductance, of the last two meters of the cable, what about if the inductance is so big on the line that is is not capable of supplying this demand, does the last two meters will help on that, that is simply ridiculous, if you or any other member hear any difference in a power cable is OK with me, and maybe is valid and possible, but please, do not try to explain it or these improvements, with the current laws of physics we already know, as simply it is not possible, nobody has been able to do it, if not those improvements, were facts, and not considered as subjective issues for many others, OK?

As long as you want to play semantics and apply simplistic theories, then try this alternative: It is neither the first nor last 2 meters of power cable. It is 4 meters in a loop of current. In principle, any part of a loop is equal to any other part. However, this 4 meters surrounds the product in question, and thus should have the greatest effect. You don't think a ferrite applied four miles away at the power station is going to help sonically, do you? ;^)

As for not trying to explain the physical world with physics, OK, lets go back to living in trees. Or maybe back into the oceans.

Every technology and every product requires development. We R&D product developers, and experimental acousticians in particular, are always performing experiments and finding what theory to apply or extend to explain the developments. There are thousands of professional journals dedicated to such efforts. You seem to say that search for understanding should cease. Or at least, you don't want to hear about it. ;^)

I think we should all get some power cables and go do some tests. At least that is what I'll be doing. Back to our regularly scheduled programming....

 

[Stoney]

I went back and read the first part of the thread. I think it is fine for skeptics like fewtch and sovkiller to express it. We don't need to shout them down. And they don't need to shout us down either. Instead, I say, let the thread be sort of a poll, each adding their own views. The original poster, and lurkers, can draw conclusions for themselves. I don't mean and won't get into shouting each other down. I may post counter arguments, but forgive me if it comes off as trying to shut anyone up. I don't wish to escalate that trend. :^(

 

[Anders]

Sovkiller, it was not meant as a comment about your knowledge. I have seen some confusion about this in other contexts and only wanted to give some information for those who might be interested.

 

[00940]

ooh btw : it has been said that benefits of power cords could be linked to the "filtering" of the ac.

One of these tests took place in an hotel, without anything related to a power conditionner. As stated before, the most significant difference was provided by a power cord which is a straight piece of copper mummified in teflon and cotton. After, well, declining returns.

The other test (on the less expensive system) was made on a better power source (dedicated earth coming right from the main panel). Improvements of the same order. Curiously, schaffner filters (you know those filtering iec jacks) considered to mod my cdp actually degraded the sound and were dismissed.

 

[Sovkiller]

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sovkiller wrote this dismissive run-on sentence: As long as you want to play semantics and apply simplistic theories, then try this alternative: It is neither the first nor last 2 meters of power cable. It is 4 meters in a loop of current. In principle, any part of a loop is equal to any other part. However, this 4 meters surrounds the product in question, and thus should have the greatest effect. You don't think a ferrite applied four miles away at the power station is going to help sonically, do you? ;^) As for not trying to explain the physical world with physics, OK, lets go back to living in trees. Or maybe back into the oceans. Every technology and every product requires development. We R&D product developers, and experimental acousticians in particular, are always performing experiments and finding what theory to apply or extend to explain the developments. There are thousands of professional journals dedicated to such efforts. You seem to say that search for understanding should cease. Or at least, you don't want to hear about it. ;^) I think we should all get some power cables and go do some tests. At least that is what I'll be doing. Back to our regularly scheduled programming....

Well, actually I agree with that, and to be even more accurate, they are in fact the 4 meters exactly in the middle of a loop, more or less, as the energy goes back to the same point it came right? And has to be a closed circuit, AC has a live and a return, at least the electricians commonly call it that way, I know the AC has no poles and is a sinusoid, and bla, bla, bla, but this is the way it is called, for good or bad.

And another point there is no stronger chain that its weaker link, as you stated, all points are similar and as importat as the others, so go and figure, where that weak link will be!!!! It doen't matter if is around the equipment in question or not, as per the trees is OK, go back if you want, I won't OK? LOL .....Well I'm not trying to say that this could not be explained on physics theory, it could, and it will be, but till now, there is no such explanation, if it exists, where is it? Then it is not a personalized subjective perception, it is a fact....there are evidences of that. And even if I personally hear those improvements, it is still not an explaination for the rest of the non believers...Please I do not want the D&R to cease, OTOH, why all those upgrades we made? I like that, but when there is no explanation, what about this wording:".......there is no explanation to the date, but even though, there is a noticeable improvement, IMO and IME, and to my ears...." and period, but begin to talk about parameters that at the end, even could be outperform for another cable under those categories is a little tricky, don't you think?

Anders that is OK, I do not took it personally, I was just trying to explain why we do not understand the way he talked....

 

[zool]

Ok, I've switched cables back and forth now like 40 times in a row.. Not so sure if this is good for my amp, switching the power on and off repeatedly so many times in short periods.

However I have come to the conclusion that there indeed is a slight difference between the cables. I first tried turning the old cable around so the phase was switched the "wrong" way. I could definitively tell the difference after just listening once to both the cords.. I then turned the cable so the phase was on the "right" side, the difference was not as clear to me now.. I had to switch cables like 10 times just to be sure there was any noticeable difference at all. I always thought the sound was just a bit more open "airy" with the more expensive power cord.. but I was never really sure. Now I think I am, after testing these two cables so many times I'm pretty sure of it. It might just be in my head, but I highly doubt it. Most of the difference that I heard was in the bass, I felt like it was more "realistic" with the more expensive cord and more "flat" with the cheap-grade one.

I was really sceptic that there would be any difference at all.. So I definitively don't think I heard something I just wanted to hear. I strongly believe there is a slight difference.. Maybe not as noticeable as in switching signal cables, but enough to make me want to keep it.

 

[lan]

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Originally posted by zool I was really sceptic that there would be any difference at all.. So I definitively don't think I heard something I just wanted to hear. I strongly believe there is a slight difference.. Maybe not as noticeable as in switching signal cables, but enough to make me want to keep it.

I didn't know you were in Europe. I'm not familiar with the connectors there.

If the difference is that small, I'd pass on that cable. You have the opportunity to return it easily so I would and possibly try another cable or just save your $ for something else in the future.