[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sovkiller fewtch, what happen is that I think that mostly the people who states that hear the differences, and maybe in fact "hear" the differences, all of them maybe have power conditioners, and a very good and clean power at the outlet, in that case, maybe is possible to hear any difference, between a crappy cable and a very expensive one, (even when IMO, I doubt that) otherwise, there is not logical base neither, on a polluted crappy line, the last meter of cable won't make any difference....

Yeah, we agree on this. But I don't see the sense in "arguing" with anyone who hear differences, and didn't even intend to post again on this until markl decided to challenge what I said just because I never spent hundreds of dollars on some power cord to test the theory. Sometimes, what I feel is common sense is plenty good enough for me to form an opinion.

BTW I don't see the point in any more of this... I stated my opinion (for whatever it's worth) and will leave the thread now. This kind of debate could go on and on, and only stir up emotions. Whoever gets excited about power cords... have fun with the talk...

Adios.

 

[Mastergill]

Quote:

Originally posted by fewtch My personal opinion on this is that expensive power cords are mostly snake oil. If you look at the wiring inside the walls carrying the power to the wall socket, it's all cheap material and construction. It's hard for me to see how a pricey power cord will deliver power to a component better than a well-constructed inexpensive power cord... this is ~115VAC we're talking about, and it's not an audio signal.

I agree with that, i tought too that it was stupid to spend $$$ when behind your wall socket there's just hard copper wire. But i trust also some people who have notice improvement with such a cable. So i've tried something and i recommend to try if you can dedicate a wall socket only for your gear

.

I've cut some generic power cord to the minimum size needed (20cm and 40cm) for my gears, removed the wall socket, connected the two cables with 'electrician dominoes' directly to the wires that's inside the wall (plus you can check that the phase is right...be carefull turn off the main power!); then instead of a normal wall socket i've put a cover, you know, that allow a cable to go trough.

When i first listened, i immediately notice a nice improvement, more clarity over the whole frequency, but the more impressive was a huge control and resolution of the bass spectrum, bass are more 'thick' and controled than before. So there's a real improvement that can be done but i will never spend $500 or more for power cable. IMO a perfect contact (no loosy plugs and sockets) is more important than fat or expensive wires.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally posted by fewtch Yeah, we agree on this. But I don't see the sense in "arguing" with people who hear differences, and didn't even intend to post again on this until markl decided to challenge what I said just because I never spent hundreds of dollars on some power cord to test the theory. Sometimes, what I feel is common sense is plenty good enough for me to form an opinion.

I agree, but sometimes common sense is not enough to form an opinion on audio, we have to hear, of course power cords are not on the signal path, and I "refuse to hear" them, but mostly audio stuff is outside the margins of commom sense....sometimes a 300.00 amp, sounds better than more expensive amps, and sometimes a 50.00 headphone sound better than more expensive fellows

 

[markl]

Quote:

I don't know why you chose my statement to pick on here and not Sovkiller's agreement... imo, he states very clearly why expensive power cords are snake oil for the most part.

You too, then Sovkiller!

But actually, he does own some aftermarket power cords so even he isn't hard-core about it.

You should be aware of two things here on Head-Fi:

1. Members generally dislike it when people present opinions that are based on speculation over direct experience, you may have noticed this.

2. Head-Fi is a "DBT-Free" (Double Blind Testing) Forum. That means, Jude has decided that the endless arguments about whether or not cables can make a difference or not, are not constructive to the site (not that you were creating an argument or were thread-crapping, but there were some bad apples in the past, hence the policy). He has decided to dis-allow any potential thread-crappers who may want to argue that cables make no difference and that believers are deluded and foolish, etc.

Really, fewtch I'm not picking on you specifically, I swear! But sometimes certain blanket statements deserve to be questioned and evaluated, that's all. Cheers.

Mark

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl You too, then Sovkiller! But actually, he does own some aftermarket power cords so even he isn't hard-core about it. You should be aware of two things here on Head-Fi: 1. Members generally dislike it when people present opinions that are based on speculation over direct experience, you may have noticed this.

Yep, I noticed... actually I'm basing this on (what I take to be) knowledge of electronics and some common sense, so it isn't pure speculation. I don't feel that everything has to be heard to hold a valid opinion (most things do, but I exclude expensive power cords from this as an exception to the rule -- for reasons already discussed -- again, just my personal viewpoint). I'm somewhat of a skeptic on audio cables too, but keep a much more open mind on that one -- they're in the signal path, and are certainly capable of affecting SQ. "Why" and "how much" are up for grabs, imo.
Quote:

2. Head-Fi is a "DBT-Free" (Double Blind Testing) Forum. That means, Jude has decided that the endless arguments about whether or not cables can make a difference or not, are not constructive to the site (not that you were creating an argument or were thread-crapping, but there were some bad apples in the past, hence the policy). He has decided to dis-allow any potential thread-crappers who may want to argue that cables make no difference and that believers are deluded and foolish, etc.

For the record, I agree with and respect that policy (and know what you mean about "DBT-crazy" people who love to argue and insist on blind testing to "prove" everything -- it annoys me too, having encountered a few on other forums and on Usenet). One thing I'd never do is state anyone is deluded or foolish for hearing something. The gist of what I said was just to give a personal opinion on pricey power cords without dissing anyone else's opinion -- and in particular not dissing what anyone hears. Just thought I'd reply to the original poster's question with one "fwiw" viewpoint among many, and really intended just to stop there.

Cheers...

 

[Sovkiller]

I only have a pair of Quails, this pair was part of some free samples that they sent me, both are hospital grade power cables, one is on the Power Conditioner, and the other is at the Perreaux, (the rest has no swapable cables, sorry) you may ask if I do not believe in power cables, why? Well simply because I do believe that those are better cables than the stock ones, at least thicker gauges, and better overall mechanical construction, but not becasue of the sonic qualities, both sound the same to me, but both are not made the same way, as the Quail are mechanically superior, and as I have them at hand, I use them.

I agree with Mark on that, if you believe on cables, nobody is going to make you change your mind, so a discussion is out of contest and completelly useless, is like a religion, nothing could be physically proved, but you still believe, and you will hear differences, it doesn't matter what others belive or think, personally sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, and sometimes I can't, even if I like to (cause the cost...LOL), but I'm open to try them, if this is the case and I could get a free audition, but for sure I will not spend on cables, just to try them, right now a nice headfier borrow me a pair of nice MIT cables, I was hearing them for two days, and honestly aside the hassle of the locking RCAs, and "maybe" a little improvement of the soundstage, I don't see any major difference that justify to buy them, over the ones I have, let's wait some more days, and sorry if I change later, but this is my first impression.

 

[zool]

Quote:

Originally posted by lan What kind of cable was this? You can't plug 3 prong IEC ones wrong.

No you can't.. But at the other end, the one you put into the wall, apparently you can plug that end in "wrong".. suppose to give you less performance.

Btw, this is the cable I got.. See the green end of the cable, that's the one you can plug in wrong.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally posted by zool No you can't.. But at the other end, the one you put into the wall, apparently you can plug that end in "wrong".. suppose to give you less performance. Btw, this is the cable I got.. See the green end of the cable, that's the one you can plug in wrong.

What happen is that you live in Europe on some any other place that uses two prongs cables, in US our cables has three prongs, and you simply can't place them, the other way around, you can't...

 

[zool]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sovkiller What happen is that you live in Europe on some any other place that uses two prongs cables, in US our cables has three prongs, and you simply can't place them, the other way around, you can't...

Hmm, I had a imported dvd-player from US.. It only had 2 prongs, they didn't look the same as here in europe.. But I still only could see 2.

 

[Stoney]

I'm about to experiment with some good, heavy, shielded cables. So I can let you know.

I do know I've heard huge differences with interconnects. And, I've designed RF interconnects for medical ultrasound, so I do have some of the theory regarding impedance, noise, and so on.

My speculation on power cables is that there may be two main issues.

1. Power Cords can act as antennas and as capacitors, both resulting in pick up of RF noise from the environment. As you may know from poor audio equipment, the world is full of radio stations, and even moreso, of noise sources. These, especially RF carriers, can be easily picked up by power cables acting as antennas. Power cords can also pick up noise capacitively.
Quote:

changing the last 2 meters of your power line (the pc) will not make that much difference if it is plugged into those cheap powerwires found inside the walls which run more than 20 meters out...

As one writer (forget which) said recently, that is the wrong way to look at it. It is not the "last 2 meters;" it is the "first 2 meters."

Now, we treat power supplies as if they are perfect, similar to the way we treat electrical components as "lumped parameters." But we know that resistors and capacitors can be inductive, that capacitors need to be bypassed at high frequencies, for example. Similarly, power supplies do not reject all the noise coming up the power line. This includes the RF noise picked up by the "last" 2 meters of cable, which is coupled with low impedance into the power supply, but with relatively high impedance to the AC power transformer miles away. So, the noise couples nicely into the amplifier's power supply, and right into the amplifier (or DAC, or turntable motor).

This noise intermodulates easily into the audio spectrum that we are listening to. IIRC, Hi Fi News and Record Review published graphs showing how this noise modulates strongly or weakly into numerous components under test, and showed at least some correlation with sound quality (can't remember if it was Martin Colloms or perhaps another whose name escapes me this morning).

This is how twisting and shielding can have such significant effects. Any property, including dielectric, can affect how RF is coupled into the equipment or otherwise reflected or shunted to ground. Connectors can also serve as points of reflection or susceptibility.

Consider how significant something like ERS cloth (or a microwave oven tray... try it) can have one some cables and components -- this simply shows how much RF is present and how benficial a bit of shielding can be.

2. Cables are inductive to varying degrees. Just as we make this mistake with interconnects and speaker cables, we think of power cables as mere "conductors," perfect ones at that. As demands from the amp and from other equipment on the same line changes (which it does at frequencies ranging well up into the audio band), inductance in these cables resists changes in current flow.

An amplifier will demand current at certain moments, but the current won't be available right away because of inductance. Of course this affects sound quality, as we all know.
Quote:

But there's absolutely no basis in electronics (at least that I'm aware of) for why an expensive power cord would "sound" better than an inexpensive but properly designed one -- that is, designed to deliver the wattage the equipment requires without interfering with anything else.

Now, I'm not saying that there isn't "snake oil" in audio, far from it. Even valid products are accompanied by marketing verbiage that is, to say the least, taking poetic license. We could have our own version of the IgNobel prize (the Pulitzer or pure-****s-er prize?) for marketing hype in audio. Frankly, many superior designers don't know why their products work well, at least at first; they learn from experimentation (as should we).

But, those who dismiss the benefits of power cables, at least in certain settings, may simply be revealing two types of ignorance: having never tried it, and having inadequate theoretical understanding or experimental experience in electrical engineering. "Common sense" can be inadequate; that is why we have technical specialists.

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally posted by zool Hmm, I had a imported dvd-player from US.. It only had 2 prongs, they didn't look the same as here in europe.. But I still only could see 2.

It is not the regular IEC cables, the one you have if you take a close look one of the prongs is wider that the other, so you can't even with two insert it the wrong way, but anyway the ones we are talking about look like this:

 

[00940]

i heard several power cords, mainly on two systems. Once was at about 12k$, the other at 3k$. Power cords made a clearly audible difference, to any listener in the rooms. It is not "huge" but is noticeable enough so that a complete newbie could hear at once (think your girlfriend). The advantages were mainly clear on the cdp or dac, not as much on amps or preamps.

The thing is that the initial difference between a decent power cord at about 90$ (think Bolder type 2 or the like) or 50$ in diy and the basic cord was greater than between a good "cheap" one and real expensive stuff.

Advantages are a clear extension of the soundstage and a quieter background. A cleaner bass too. Nothing changing the balance of the system, just making it overall better.

 

[fewtch]

The differences you describe sound to me like the result of cleaner power being delivered to the equipment. Since plain old wire can't do that (in fact no conductive material can do that -- they deliver all the 'dirt' along with the AC power and a better conductor may deliver it more perfectly!), I wonder if the pricey power cords have some kind of power filtering built in? Even a capacitor or two could filter things to a small extent. If they're thick cables, a more complete filtering could be done with a full fledged circuit inside the cable.

If it were true though, a $30 power line filter could do the same thing with a $10 power cable. Trouble is, nobody would be willing to take apart a $12k power cable to see what's inside it, so this is pure speculation...

 

[tortie]

Stoney,

Your speculation has some merits. In fact I think it is one of the most detailed and well explained concepts on powercords.

Quote:

Originally posted by Stoney )...those who dismiss the benefits of power cables, at least in certain settings, may simply be revealing two types of ignorance: having never tried it, and having inadequate theoretical understanding or experimental experience in electrical engineering. "Common sense" can be inadequate; that is why we have technical specialists.

You may be right...well I just have to try it out I guess...

 

[pigmode]

Quote:

Originally posted by fewtch The gist of what I said was just to give a personal opinion on pricey power cords without dissing anyone else's opinion -- and in particular not dissing what anyone hears. Cheers...

How are people who have spent good money on PCs supposed to interpret your use of the term "snake oil"? Then when markl called you on that, you got hissy and said you were through posting.