[doctorjazz]

Y'know, this business of 10 second blinded testing has been discussed ad nauseum in the audiophile press...sure, they have a point of view, but it seems that the stress of being "tested", the fast response expected, and, yes, the subtle differences between high quality gear and lesser gear makes blind rapid tests very unreliable, but they look 'scientific". Hey, how can you argue with blinded testing? The choice of listening gear makes a big difference, as well. Ear Buds? The Sony? They basically set out to prove their hypothesis ("there is no difference"), and put together a "study" to prove it. Hey, this happens in real science, which is why reproduction of results by "uninterested" parties in respected journal is supposed to be the standard for accepting results of a study. There is constantly stories coming out about how a study dramatically comes to certain findings, only later to, on closer examination and repeat, turns out to be untrue, unsupported, badly designed, or fraud. If this happens in real science, what exactly does a random Yahoo video show?
Now, ratings of improvement, or at least difference, was given a percentage ranging from about 10-25% according to most listeners there. That is not a small difference. Even though they may have chosen the Apple as the better, they heard a significance difference In most cases. Now, when you compare a guitar, say, from a cheap boom box to a high end system, it's not like it will sound like a cello or piano on the cheap system and suddenly you can tell it's really a guitar on the high end system. They both sound like a guitar. I can listen and enjoy music from a cheap system, in a car or store, say. The improvements are fairly subtle, an increase in room sound, say, some more texture to the guitar, maybe the sound of the attack or "pluck" being more obvious. The headphones used will allow some of this to come through (or not...). Even the fit of something like the earbuds (even full size cans) will affect how they sound. It is a fairly complex bit of perception. There is no question to me that more detail comes through, but, whether you can hear the 3rd harmony voice separately from the others may matter to me, but the casual listener just hears or cares about the full sound. If they had an hour to listen to their favorite album, high rez, with the different Pono and Apple gear, at home, good ancillary gear, relaxed, maybe a glass of wine (beer, pick your lubricant), go back and forth at their leisure, I'm sure most could hear and appreciate the difference. Maybe it still wouldn't be worth the extra dollars to them, maybe it would. But this is meaningless.
I remember when CD first came out, "perfect sound forever" was how it was touted, and 99% of the population believed it. I had a friend over one day, a music fan but no interest in sound or gear. He happened to have a CD of a country record (I think it was Marty Robbins "El Paso", but wouldn't swear to it), and I happened to have the LP (the "bad" sounding, older, becoming extinct, at the time) technology, and played it on my Linn turntable and other good gear. He was floored. You could hear the song and enjoy it from the CD, but there was just more "there" there on the LP. (the LP revival is vindicating this-at the time you were a Luddite or a lunatic).
I don't really care if you buy a Pono, Neil won't starve. You can enjoy music through an iPhone. But, there is no question to me that the Pono sounds better than my iPod Touch, Samsung Samsung YPP something or other, Fiio X3, iBasso DX90, and not subtly. Which doesn't mean you can't hear and enjoy music through the others, but, given the choice (and, yes, I have done direct comparisons), I'll reach for my Pono (you can get better, it's not the ultimate-my Geek Out Special Edition sounds better (at about 2-3 times the cost), but is less reliable, not portable, tends to stop working randomly. When it acts up (or I don't want to be tied to the computer), the Pono does just fine by me.
YMMV

 

[fiascogarcia]

This will be an on going topic.  Most listeners simply enjoy background music in their lives.  Audiophile equipment will be a hard sell to many.

 

[doctorjazz]

Absolutely...I don't think people think a Volkswagen Beetle and a Lexus drive the same, but they will both get you to work. The difference is worth it to some, not even in the consciousness of others, not worth the dollar difference (or reachable) to others.

 

[PalJoey]

  This will be an on going topic.  Most listeners simply enjoy background music in their lives.  Audiophile equipment will be a hard sell to many.

Indeed. At some point, possibly in the Eighties, a decent home stereo system stopped being an aspirational item.
 
Of course, such a thing can't be taken out and flaunted in public like a flashy car, headphones, trainers, watch etc. Maybe that's part of the problem. The other being the rise of inverted snobbery (aka "keeping it real", or middle-class guilt), where wanting something better than average is often dismissed as 'elitist'.

 

[olddude]

   
Well you should. This might be the biggest audio scam around today.

So, why are you on this thread posting this?  If you don't like the Pono, and you haven't listened to the Pono, why make comments on a Pono thread?  Your uninformed (not a put-down, merely a statement of fact) opinion has no validity and the above post comes across (at least to me, and no disrespect meant) as trolling.  Yes, you have the "right" to make a comment such as this, but you need to be prepared for a reaction to it.  Is that your intent?  If so, that falls under the rubric of trolling.
 
If I went on any product forum thread here and said "This might be the biggest audio scam around today" about, say, the AK240 or the Roxanne or the X5 or DX90 or the Hugo or pick your item WITHOUT owning or at least listening to it for a reasonable length of time, and my opinion is entirely based on blogs and so-called "testing" sites, I would expect to be met with some negativity by people who actually have the item, are familiar with the item, and use the item.  As well I should be.
 
I think the whole Pono thing is amusing, as the hype is quite large and a bit ham-fisted.  HOWEVER, the device delivers and I DO believe in and use hi-res files.  Will average people actually hear a difference?  Probably not.  Most of my students listen to music on phones or iPods using standard earbuds at loud (LOUD!) volume.  Their hearing is already negatively impacted.  So when they get older will they even be able to hear "regular" music is a question I have.  As for the people in these tests, giving them a few minutes of a/b testing isn't gonna do it.  Maybe, if they had them listen to a full song that they know very well a few times and then try the same (whole) song again on a Pono, they might hear a difference.  And good listening devices would probably help.  
 
You know, lots of people drink wine and most of them can't tell a good wine from an average wine (including me).  Most people like their cameras, and think they take fine pictures,  I was a shooter for thirty years and believe me when I say there are vast differences between cameras and most professionals can spot them in a few seconds by looking at photos.  I see folks on BluRay forums stating they can't see a difference between BD and SD.  Some folks think a Big Mac is a hamburger.  It takes a bit of time and training to understand difference in products.  These "audio" tests don't do that.  Unfortunately for the advertising, Pono claims the difference is so great you can hear it right away.  Some people will need time to learn to understand what they are hearing.  Some may never get it.  Those folks will be very happy listening to music on a phone or iPod.  
 
As to the people who listen to the "information" on these blogs, and believe these "tests" because it is what they personally believe, albeit with no personal experience, they should find places to post with like-minded people or risk having their opinions challenged by people with real-world experience and knowledge of what is being discussed.  

 

[Replicant187]

people can hate N.Young and his marketing all you want but that has nothing to do with actual quality of Pono Player.

 

[lamode]

  Yes, you have the "right" to make a comment such as this, but you need to be prepared for a reaction to it.  Is that your intent?  If so, that falls under the rubric of trolling.
 
 
If I went on any product forum thread here and said "This might be the biggest audio scam around today" about, say, the AK240 or the Roxanne or the X5 or DX90 or the Hugo or pick your item WITHOUT owning or at least listening to it for a reasonable length of time, and my opinion is entirely based on blogs and so-called "testing" sites, I would expect to be met with some negativity by people who actually have the item, are familiar with the item, and use the item.  As well I should be.
 

 
I posted the truth about this hardware to save some less-informed people from being sucked in by the marketing BS. Why would anyone have a problem with that unless they had a financial interest in Pono?
 
Your analogy about the headphones is not relevant. Pono is making claims which have already been proven to be false. I don't need to listen to this overhyped iPod to know that it is not "the next best thing to live music".
 
People would be MUCH better off by upgrading their headphones by $400

 

[olddude]

What truth did you post?  What information do you have that denotes that you have the truth about Pono?  All you did was say that the Pono is a scam.  Have you heard a Pono?  In person?  With your ears?  If you have not, then any opinion you post here is just that, an opinion.  Not backed up by anything except for what you believe.  And why should anyone here believe that?  Especially when many of us here have used a variety of devices and can compare them to the Pono.  Which we also have and use.  
 
If I were to come on this site looking for info on the Pono (or ANY product), the LAST person I would take information from is someone who claims to have the truth without any indication of actual experience with the product.  
 
Being rather unpleasant by suggesting I have some financial ties with Pono ("I posted the truth about this hardware to save some less-informed people from being sucked in by the marketing BS. Why would anyone have a problem with that unless they had a financial interest in Pono?") leads me back to the idea that you are trying to create a situation where arguments are caused by your posting.  
 
Any more negative posting as above about me or other people having some sort of financial connection to Pono or similar and I will report your posts as trolling.  
 
Most of us are here to exchange ideas and help.  No one here is asking for some sort of savior to swoop in and "save some less-informed people from being sucked in by the marketing BS."  If you have actual hand's-on information about a product, then we'd love to hear your take on things.  Otherwise, claims of being the knower of truths and the savior of the less-informed smacks of something else.  

 

[lamode]

  What truth did you post?  What information do you have that denotes that you have the truth about Pono?  All you did was say that the Pono is a scam.  Have you heard a Pono?  In person?  With your ears?  If you have not, then any opinion you post here is just that, an opinion.  Not backed up by anything except for what you believe. 

 
Pono's claims are all based on the benefits of high resolution audio and double blind tests have already shown that no-one can hear the difference between Redbook and 24/192, so it is NOT just my opinion.
 
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that there are people on this thread in denial of science but it's still sad.

 

[jlbrach]

If one compares Pono to an Iphone or to a player that only can play MP's then it is a step up and no doubt an improvement well well it....if on the other hand Pono is being compared to one of the many other high end DAP's already out there in the market then we have a different story....I personally own a couple of Astell Kern DAP's.My RWAK100 is excellent and the Pono may or may not sound as good or better but my Astell Kern holds more music and plays Hi-Rez etc...I know the Pono is not as good as my Astell Kern 240 but then i wouldnt expect it to be.All I am saying is it all depends on what you are making the Pono out to be!If you are saying it is a good new entrant into the world of audiophile DAP's and another choice for consumers then I am with you,if on the other hand you are making it out to be something altogether new and different then i completely disagree!

 

[Ableza]

My Pono Player is in its box because I think the software implementation is too poorly executed for my purposes.  I'll try it again if the upgrades I seek are made available.

 

[doctorjazz]

Y'know, it IS ridiculous to say it is a scam based on that ridiculous video and no listening experience. Now, could you get more "bang for the buck" getting a good pair of headphones for $400 and listening to your iPhone than you would listening to the Pono and the Apple earbuds. Probably true. And, if I drive my Lexus with bald tires, it probably won't handle great. That doesn't say anything about the relative sound of the Pono and iPhone. Where the best place to put your money is debatable, and I wouldn't argue against the idea that you can get decent enough sound out of an iPhone to warrant going for better headphones first. But, the idea that this makes the Pono no better or worse sounding than the iPhone is ludicrous.
Appreciating good sound is a bit of a learning process. My 16 year old had been perfectly happy listening on ear buds, or straight from the iPhone. Then I got her MEElectronics (A151, I believe), after a while, she couldn't stand to listen to the ear buds. Then I got her a used decent speaker to connect the iPhone to, really appreciated the sound. And, I let her listen to some really good headphones, she got to appreciate the subtleties of the music on the recording (She's a bit Power Punk fan, particularly All Time Low. If you've ever heard their recordings, they go for a "wall of sound" kind of productions, difficult to hear individual bass notes, licks on guitar aside from the ones they've highlighted. Well, on "Somewhere In Neverland"-a song I love, btw-when the guitar comps, on good headphones, through a good system, you can hear the guitar arpeggios, something impossible to pick up on ordinary/crummy gear. This flipped her out, little by little she's learned the joys of good sound. But she didn't start out appreciating that stuff. As an aside, I wind up paying for it, she's claimed my Fidelio X1...)
So, as Olddude stated, you've expressed your opinion, based on a Yahoo video (if I had a dollar for every time I have to debunk something someone's gotten from the internet, I'd be able to retire quite wealthy...), you've warned the poor head fi fools about the Neil Young evil plot, I think we get it, time to listen to music on your iPhone and lighten up. If you enjoy it, great. Don't even bother to check anything else out (should have done that with my daughter, lol).

 

[doctorjazz]

I don't know if it is as good as the A & K, don't have one to compare it to. It is better than the DAPs I've heard at around the price, for certain, and, while the Geek Out Special Edition does sound better, not to the extent that it makes the Pono unlistenable (which the Pono DOES do to the iBasso DX90, Fiio X3, iPod Touch, from personal experience). Just sayin'

 

[Replicant187]

Pono's claims are all based on the benefits of high resolution audio and double blind tests have already shown that no-one can hear the difference between Redbook and 24/192, so it is NOT just my opinion.

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that there are people on this thread in denial of science but it's still sad.

seems to me like you are the one who got caught up in the hype.
just ignore thier claims and listen and decide for yourself.

btw, the fact that "no-one can hear the difference between Redbook and 24/192" in that video got nothing to do with actual quality of Pono Player.

 

[olddude]

  My Pono Player is in its box because I think the software implementation is too poorly executed for my purposes.  I'll try it again if the upgrades I seek are made available.

Out of curiosity, how so?  What is it that you want from the player?  I know I want folder to folder play, and DSD (which it can do, I read), and a way to kill the screen with a button instead of a timer.  But those aren't stopping me from using it.  It sounds like you have more issues and they are stopping you from using it.