[rohorn]

Tomcat

Thanks for the very well thought out reply!

No, nobody's hi-fi choices will result in another Adolf Hitler!

What does amuse me no end is the notion that whatever was technically obsolete (tubes, vinyl, etc..) is better - all the time. Vinyl doesn't grow in fields of daisies with fuzzy bunnies prancing about. Tubes (or valves for the anglocentric among us) did not grow on trees in the rainforest. Each one of those products was a product of, yes, rend your garments now, science!!

Many of the tubes made today come from the ex-Soviet military industrial complex. Why? Because they are much more immune to the affects of electromagnetic pulses generated by tactical nuclear weapons. So, if one is going to imply morallity with technology, well, there you have it.

No, you (or anybdy else, for that matter) are certainly not obligated to quantify that which amuses you. What I do find is that quantification, to some degree or another, lends a great deal of crediblity to the opinion of the matter at hand. And, for many pursuits and diversions, that is not only impossible, but undesirable as well.

What you said about the art/science ratio as it applies to audio is an opinion I share. I just like to know the "why" part, that's all! I hope MBriant isn't insulted in any way by my saying that I agree with everything he said in his last post as well.

Oh, yes, about that getting off track part, I would NEVER do that, uh, er, um, nevermind!!

Happy listening and thanks for the exchange.

Rohorn

 

[mbriant]

Rohorn: I'll try not to be insulted by you agreeing with me. Just don't make a habit of it.

 

[souporhero]

At this point, I am kinda wondering what cables Rohorn uses.

 

[rohorn]

Straightwire

Any suggestions? IF I am wrong, and IF, as a result, I enjoy listening to music even more, then I will be better off for it. If not, well, neither of us will have lost anything.

 

[ponzio]

Thanks for testing chych! Although mbriant has valid points for conducting more thorough tests, you arrived at the result I had expected, which was "small difference". Unfortunately, at this time I do not have a functioning audio system, so I cannot conduct this experiment myself, but in case you do decide to conduct the true, blind, 4 part experiment, also note the amount of time left for equipment warm-up (i.e. allow the equipment to achieve operating temp before beginning the experiment).

I find this testing / debate quite interesting and am considering purchasing a data acquisition board for my pc so that I may more precisely measure the characteristics of things like cables etc.

 

[Tomcat]

rohorn,

Some blatant advertising: arnett is selling a pair of Cardas 300 B Microtwin interconnects at the For Sale Section. I have perceived mine as a huge improvement. On the other hand: I shudder at the thought what wrath would come upon me if you didn't like them.

The safest bet is probably just borrowing some interconnects from a store. Since you are an outspoken skeptic, I would be very interested in the results of any experiment you did!

 

[rohorn]

Wrath? Me?? Er, um, well, since you ask, I will quite happily share my "findings" - privately - so I can get some feedback. The overwhelming majority of you have been quite patient with my opinions and I certainly owe you the same respect. If my experiences change my mind, I will have learned, among other things, humility and a greater level of respect for y'all - no current disrespect intended!!

So far, my experiences have indicated nothing - to my ears, that is! I got the IC I have now because it is very well made, the perfect length, and HeadRoom (with whom I've enjoyed exchanging money for goods & services) carried it. It replaced a "top of the line" Radio Shack cable. I can not hear any difference whatsoever. The difference in sources that I have and in the amps (one of which I sold) is quite evident. Two cables doesn't prove anything, either.

But the proof, I hear, is in the pudding. What I was wondering (in a moment of idleness at work) is: Does pudding taste better if the edge of the bowl is colored with a green marker? Does a solid silver core spoon taste better than one with a copper core? Will a power conditioner make the refrigerator keep it fresh longer? Will a better power cord on the stove make it creamier?

OK - so I'm being a smartass again.

Seriously, thanks for the info. I don't know when I'll try it out, but as happy as I am with what I have, it would be a shame to think that it is as good as I can get it.

 

[ai0tron]

edit

 

[ai0tron]

Rohorn,

A serious thought not meant as an insult. Maybe riding your motorbike around the country has degraded your hearing to the point where you no longer have the sensitivity necessary to hear a difference in IC's?

The fact of the matter is... IC's DO make a difference. Ok let's say they are hocus pocus and they don't make a difference. Then let's wonder why practically the entire audiophile world feels IC's do make a difference?? Are you trying to say that the entire audiophile world is suffering from pathos? Do you think you are saving us all by liberating us from our delusions?

Ok nonbelievers... Any seasoned audiophile will tell you that IC's make a difference. Whether small or big they make a difference. All you doubters are wrong, your not entitled to your opinions in this case. Why?? Take for instance the differences between copper and silver. It is not an assumption to think that they would sound different. They are completely different metals with different molecular structures. This changes the way electricity moves through them. This movement is called conduction!! Weee!! Audiophiles all love conduction because it's what makes our headphones go bOOm bOOm!!

Heres a definition I copied

"The rate of flow, i.e., the electric current, is proportional to the potential difference and to the electrical conductivity of the substance, which in turn depends on the nature of the substance, its cross-sectional area, and its temperature" - Encyclopedia.com

 

[ponzio]

I request that someone believing that interconnects and/or speaker cable make a sonic difference please produce a frequency response chart (or a hyperlink to one) for both good and bad cable proving same. Please also list the components used and the method for testing.

At least my eyes can be convinced.

Anyone who wants to prove it to my ears can send me a magnificent CDP, DAC, Pre, Amp, Speakers and cables and I'll decide for myself. I would go to a showroom, but I don't like salesmen when a pseudo-objective opinion is required.

 

[morphsci]

Quote:

Originally posted by ponzio I request that someone believing that interconnects and/or speaker cable make a sonic difference please produce a frequency response chart (or a hyperlink to one) for both good and bad cable proving same. Please also list the components used and the method for testing.

Not really taking sides here but why would the differences between ICs and speaker cables necessarily show up in a frequency response graph? Why not a phase response graph? or a group delay chart? Is it possible that there are aspects of sound, musical reproduction, acoustics and psychoacoustics that we cannot as yet measure? I am all for measurements but don't they need to be related back to the phenomena they are purported to measure? Has human knowledge reached the state that we can measure everything we need to measure? The last I heard the physicists were still trying to hash out the details of the theory of everything

BTW I voted for a some difference based upon my admittedly limited experiences and my own personal conception of small and large.

 

[LeonardSmalls]

Quote:

Originally posted by ai0tron Rohorn, Heres a definition I copied "The rate of flow, i.e., the electric current, is proportional to the potential difference and to the electrical conductivity of the substance, which in turn depends on the nature of the substance, its cross-sectional area, and its temperature" - Encyclopedia.com

So in that case, 45 amp thick multicore mains cable will sound brilliant....
As someone who has worked in both a recording studio and broadcast tv sound environment, I can positively say that much of the "high cost IC really makes a difference" argument is just hype, and a darned good way to sell very expensive (and undoubtedly handsome!) cable to folks - who will hear a difference cos they've paid a fortune for it!
There is no way that there is information on a cd/tape/whatever that was not recorded at source. That is, whatever went down the Canford Audio (if you're in the UK) cable in the studio, at significantly less cost than say Nordost, was recorded.
So why would you need very expensive cable to retrieve information that may not have been there in the first place?
What's good enough for a recording studio is certainly good enough for me!
Perhaps very expensive cable is a symptom of listening to the hifi, and not to the music

Sorry to differ, chaps!
PS I voted for some difference, cos bellwire definitely sounds worse than a "suitable" ic!

 

[Tomcat]

"Does a solid silver core spoon taste better than one with a copper core?"

rohorn,
Since you wanted to know: A silver spoon will taste better than a stainless steel one because steel has lousy thermal conductivity. Something like 420 W/m·K for silver compared to 15 W/m·K for steel. It's similar with wine glasses, btw: the thinner they are the better. Even the shape of the glass will influence taste, since shape regulates the flow of the liquid onto the tongue. And there are different areas of sensitivity on the tongue for different aspects of taste: sweetness, saltiness, bitterness and so on. Therefore the "timing" of the flow will finally determine the taste sensation.
Okay, I have to admit: I am more into wine than pudding.

ponzio,
On the second page of this thread, souporhero has provided some very good links to two sites discussing cable design philosophies and in the "Insights" section of his site, George Cardas has published an article about "Measuring Cable Resonance", complete with graphs. At the end, he claims that "Ocean Way or Grundman Mastering use tens of thousands of feet of specialty audio cable". Have a guess which one, LeonardSmalls.

There is another interesting link there to an article from Ultimate Audio titled "High End Designers Reassess the Importance of Audio Measurements". morphsci is definitely right (now, some Shakespeare, just to get rid of this "pudding" stigma): "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

 

[ai0tron]

Leonard, it is sometimes about a retrieval of details but usualy having different interconnects is about character of sound. Things like the balance of the sound, the harshness or lack of, the seperation of instruments, the speed of attack, bass response etc. It's my honest opinion that most audiophile cables lose information on purpose in order to make it more pleasant in some manner. If your system has a certain character of sound changing cables can alter it to an extent. I would say that spending anymore than $250-500 is WAY too much and even then only justifiable in extreme cases.

 

[LeonardSmalls]

aiOtron!
As far as I'm concerned, cables shouldn't hide anything, or even have a character of their own... They are after all only a means of getting a signal from cd to amp to phones or speakers.
If things need to be hidden in a system, then that system is mismatched! Shouldn't the perfect hifi just be a bit of straight wire with gain?
I personally use Cambridge Audio Pacific and Linn interconnects, and Monster speaker cable, retailing at £150 total (though I got them all free with various bits of kit...), if I had to pay that I would be severely tempted to get the Canford pro cable (that's what the BBC use!) at a max of £30 the lot, and spend the difference on 12 cds!