[GuruTech]

Well If i would be at your place, Denon d 7000 would be my choice without any further hesitation

 

[rhythmdevils]

I can't say about the 4070, the way people have described the 4070 to me in the past made it seem like the opposite of what you are looking for, and since I have similar taste, I have never listened to them. But a lot of knowledgeable head-fiers in this thread have recommended them.

My reference for headphones has also been my studio monitors, which aren't as nice as yours, but probably have a similar signature. I agree with everything you have said here and in other threads about head-fi's idea of neutral. It is actually a recent phenomenon on head-fi, the idea that neutral means bass light, with peaky treble, and the idea that recordings are mostly so horribly mixed that the treble is painful, and if the phones don't reflect that, then they are rolled off on top.

Seems like when a lot of people just repeat things as you said before, it's easy for a few vocal people to change the general consensus of a community. Very interesting!

A few years ago, you didn't see a thread about neutral phones without most of the posts pointing towards the HP2. I would really recommend thinking again about trying them out. The best thing I've read about neutrality talked about the equipment being chameleon, and changing with the recording. The HP2 is the only headphone that has ever fully given me that feeling, that they are not imparting anything of their own. It really is a beautiful experience. I'm not sure they would give you the sub-bass performance you're looking for though. But they can be resold at no loss, and I've never heard of an HP2 driver failing.

I didn't get to spend much time with the JH13, but it is the only other phone that has given me that feeling, and I think it would be perfect for what you are looking for in sub-bass performance. Or maybe the JH-16.

One other, which dreamwhisper mentioned was the YH100. Fantastic bass response, if properly damped. Punchy, extends very low, and is very fast and detailed. I bet you could convince someone in the ortho thread to work on one for you since you are using it for mixing. Much cheaper than the alternatives too, so not a big risk to try one on for size. Your preference for the HD650 and what you want to improve on it makes me think you would love these.

if there was another contender that was cheaper, I'd own it! Or I'd like to know about it

 

[froasier]

Try playing around with Learning Center - Build a Headphone Graph | HeadRoom Audio to compare some of the models that have been mentioned. I have found that by comparing to headphones you have heard you can get a decent impression of the response.

 

[Lunatique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by froasier /img/forum/go_quote.gif Try playing around with Learning Center - Build a Headphone Graph | HeadRoom Audio to compare some of the models that have been mentioned. I have found that by comparing to headphones you have heard you can get a decent impression of the response.

I do that so often that I think I'm wearing out that graph builder.

 

[froasier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunatique /img/forum/go_quote.gif I do that so often that I think I'm wearing out that graph builder.

It seems like you must have a pretty good idea of what will work for you at this point. Judging by the number of headphones that are widely recommended for studio work and appear to have good enough response, I would think you'd be pleased with at least a few of them. What's still on your mind?

 

[Lunatique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by froasier /img/forum/go_quote.gif What's still on your mind?

Actually, I've gone ahead and pulled the trigger on the D7000. Although I suspect there are more accurate/neutral sounding cans on my wishlist, logistically, the D7000 fits my current budget and setup best. I've realized that there could never be a perfect pair of anything, especially when you get into the expensive high-end. It's all just about subjective preference and they are all of excellent quality in the high-end. I'm pretty sure the D700 won't be the last pair of headphones I'll buy, so the future is wide open.

I'll be getting the JMoney pads too, and maybe even a headphone amp to go with the D7000.

 

[rhythmdevils]

all the good recommendations in this thread and you got the D7000? Seriously? If that's what the pros say tests neutral, then it's proof that testing headphones is useless.

But I'll be curious to know what you think!

 

[n3rdling]

Ya those are some of the most colored headphones I've heard. Hope you enjoy them though.

 

[froasier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunatique /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually, I've gone ahead and pulled the trigger on the D7000. Although I suspect there are more accurate/neutral sounding cans on my wishlist, logistically, the D7000 fits my current budget and setup best. I'll be getting the JMoney pads too, and maybe even a headphone amp to go with the D7000.

Great! You'll have to let us know how they turn out.

 

[dreamwhisper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmdevils /img/forum/go_quote.gif If that's what the pros say tests neutral, then it's proof that testing headphones is useless.

lol good point,


If you get an amp I would recommend a hybrid amp.
Don't take the haters criticism too much, I was reading the other day that for one person the Omega 2 with WES compared to the D7000 with EF5. (I think it was the EF5 anyway)

My opinion (having heard the D5000 & O2) is that they are totally different, but it looks as though to get the best out of the Omega 2 you have to go Blue Hawaii... so it is prbly better off that you went with something less demanding on system components.

So most of all, enjoy your new D7000!

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmdevils /img/forum/go_quote.gif One other, which dreamwhisper mentioned was the YH100. Fantastic bass response, if properly damped. Punchy, extends very low, and is very fast and detailed.

If you put up a WTB add in the FS forums it's likely you'll find a pair. They come up often enough and for relatively cheap imo.

 

[Killercrush]

 

[Lunatique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmdevils /img/forum/go_quote.gif all the good recommendations in this thread and you got the D7000? Seriously? If that's what the pros say tests neutral, then it's proof that testing headphones is useless. But I'll be curious to know what you think!

I'm beginning to think that a "neutral" pair of headphones don't exist, and everyone's opinions are merely that--subjective opinions. I say this because even when a pair of headphones is measured with pro audio equipment to be impressively flat, people still slam that headphone anyway (such as the case with D2000, even considering its mids a recessed its still far more flat than most headphones out there). So if actual scientific equipment won't convince anyone, then what will? Nothing will, except someone's own subjective bias.

So with that considered, I decided I might as well go for a pair that simply will give me lots of enjoyment, and the D7000 appears to have the qualities I'm after. I've also decided that I'm not going to do any critical work on headphones late at night, and I'd rather wait till the next day and use my Klein + Hummel O 300D's. So that means the D7000 will be for leisure listening, where I can get more sub-bass impact than the HD650, and better details than the M50, plus a soundstage that's probably somewhere between the two--that pretty much fits the bill for me.

 

[Towert7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunatique /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm beginning to think that a "neutral" pair of headphones don't exist, and everyone's opinions are merely that--subjective opinions. I say this because even when a pair of headphones is measured with pro audio equipment to be impressively flat, people still slam that headphone anyway (such as the case with D2000, even considering its mids a recessed its still far more flat than most headphones out there). So if actual scientific equipment won't convince anyone, then what will? Nothing will, except someone's own subjective bias.

I'm sure you already know this, so I'll just be restating the obvious.
Freq Response graphs only tell you the Freq Response of the headphones.
It says 'there is this much SPL at 20Hz, this much SPL at 1000Hz', etc. It does not tell you HOW that SPL sounds. How fast is the delivery, how 'colored' does that frequency sound.
A headphone that takes as input a 200Hz sine wave, and outputs a 200Hz sine wave with 100dB SPL, will have roughly the same Freq response as a headphone that takes that same signal and outputs a 200Hz triangle wave. Roughly same Freq Reponse graph, but HUGELY different sound.

As a mixer though I'm sure you already knew this. Just reminding you.

This is the nature of many of the comments about the Denon's being colored. Sure, their Freq Response graphs may look flat to you, but they can still be colored as hell!

Either way, enjoy the D7000.

 

[froasier]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmdevils /img/forum/go_quote.gif If that's what the pros say tests neutral, then it's proof that testing headphones is useless.

This statement is flawed in so many ways, I'm not even going to go into it. But read below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunatique /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm beginning to think that a "neutral" pair of headphones don't exist, and everyone's opinions are merely that--subjective opinions. I say this because even when a pair of headphones is measured with pro audio equipment to be impressively flat, people still slam that headphone anyway (such as the case with D2000, even considering its mids a recessed its still far more flat than most headphones out there). So if actual scientific equipment won't convince anyone, then what will? Nothing will, except someone's own subjective bias.

First of all, I think anyone who argues against measured data (especially when less knowledgeable/experienced on the subject than those presenting said data, i.e. "the pros") should first do their own personal measurements (e.g. with the site you linked). There are also equal-loudness contours to consider, meaning what measures flat (with a microphone) will not necessarily sound flat, and as HeadRoom explains, "a 'natural sounding' headphone should be slightly higher in the bass (about 3 or 4 dB) between 40Hz and 500Hz. [...] Headphones also need to be rolled-off in the highs to compensate for the drivers being so close to the ear; a gently sloping flat line from 1kHz to about 8-10dB down at 20kHz is about right." Going by this description, the Denons look pretty damn 'natural' (which I think translates closely enough to 'flat' for our purposes).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Towert7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm sure you already know this, so I'll just be restating the obvious. Freq Response graphs only tell you the Freq Response of the headphones. It says 'there is this much SPL at 20Hz, this much SPL at 1000Hz', etc. It does not tell you HOW that SPL sounds. How fast is the delivery, how 'colored' does that frequency sound. A headphone that takes as input a 200Hz sine wave, and outputs a 200Hz sine wave with 100dB SPL, will have roughly the same Freq response as a headphone that takes that same signal and outputs a 200Hz triangle wave. Roughly same Freq Reponse graph, but HUGELY different sound. As a mixer though I'm sure you already knew this. Just reminding you. This is the nature of many of the comments about the Denon's being colored. Sure, their Freq Response graphs may look flat to you, but they can still be colored as hell!

In my experience, generally when people say "colored", they're talking about frequency response. Add the facts that pretty much this whole thread has been about frequency response and that no one has explicitly mentioned other types of coloration, and I think you may be going out on a limb to assume this meaning from their comments. After all, from a mixing standpoint, frequency response takes precedence. However, it is true that the D7000 does quite poorly on the square wave tests, even significantly worse than the D2000 and D5000.

 

[paaj]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunatique /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... The Stax headphones may be too rich for my blood. I'd like to keep my spending to maybe $2000 total, including if the headphone requires a matching amp.

a 4070 second-hand would be ~$1400 + ~$600 for a used SRM-T1... just saying

if you want flat and detailed this is one to try.

---
ah, you went for the Denon. enjoy!