[Wish I had a cool name]

My question back is who controls retailers, influences social factors and even society at large? When most people are getting squeezed in every direction by landlords, crappy jobs and rising prices, sorry but no, I'm not going to blame them.

Touché.
Can't obsolescence in products (absolute or relative) be considered as a necessity to spike the economy, ensuring higher living standards. And the problem is actually located at our handling and recycling of those products?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

This question properly also relate to both of you, and is somewhat in relation to what eobet is writing above.
- The question, like all other, is open for everybody to answer, and open for every bit of interpretation!

• Imagine it is possible, and the given product price is the same: Would you rather buy/have a constant performing product which is possible to repair at an affordable price (somewhat like older appliances') where you however compromises on innovation upgrades, as you are not allowed to replace the product in a long time. Or are you more interested in a product where the product's performance isn't given, and is rather inconsistent as you are not aware if it suddenly malfunctions, where mending is pricey and complicated. You are, however, allowed to change the product every second year to newer products with 'new' features?

I'll put it this way: I've been enjoying my HD600 for 13yrs, and my Meier Cantate.2 for 11yrs until it started malfunctioning so I had to get an auxiliary amp, an Asgard3. The only things I've ever really constantly replaced were the replaceable parts like earpads, and cables that thankfully just pull out of the socket on the headphone ie no soldering required, and the source units which only really got replaced on a cycle because they're cheap from my carrier but now got permanently bumped down into being remote control or Spotify streamer for the new source unit, a DAP, that I hope I can get a battery for when the time comes.

So in other words: as far as audio is concerned, then I want reliability and obviously, I can do without buying stuff for a while.

But that's audio. My laptops break in one way or another but my needs also change, so some I never fixed, or that trash I got from Lenovo that just started falling apart that was too expensive to replace (although had it not fallen apart I wouldn't have replaced it back in 2019). I haven't broken anything on my desktops save for the Skylake rig that shorted, but even before then, I've done upgrades to things that aren't broken. Why? Just because it works, doesn't mean it works fine for what I need it to do. Sure that GTX 980 still runs four years later and barely even needed a repaste, but if it's not doing 60fps for a smooth gaming experience (and in the case of Total War games: rendering enough soldiers so the battlefield doesn't look empty), then it's not really working right anymore.

 

[eobet]

Can't obsolescence in products (absolute or relative) be considered as a necessity to spike the economy, ensuring higher living standards. And the problem is actually located at our handling and recycling of those products?

See my comment about the right to repair. It's not enough for these corporations to sell us short lifespan products which are difficult to upgrade, service and repair, they even want to control what little upgrades, services and repairs can be done. Any spike in economy was short sighted as the entire planet is now going to bear that cost, as well as future generations for millennia. So no, I wouldn't place the blame on the end of life handling either (nobody in the recycling industry seems to have attempted world domination yet... where's "spike" for the service and recycling economy? You're in Denmark, so you probably know that Sweden's new right-wing government recently raised the taxes on repairs).

 

[Wish I had a cool name]

See my comment about the right to repair. It's not enough for these corporations to sell us short lifespan products which are difficult to upgrade, service and repair, they even want to control what little upgrades, services and repairs can be done. Any spike in economy was short sighted as the entire planet is now going to bear that cost, as well as future generations for millennia. So no, I wouldn't place the blame on the end of life handling either (nobody in the recycling industry seems to have attempted world domination yet... where's "spike" for the service and recycling economy? You're in Denmark, so you probably know that Sweden's new right-wing government recently raised the taxes on repairs).

I saw something about the taxes in Sweden, which actually was my next question. Please enlighten me a bit, as it seems like the VAT rules is rather inconsistent, at least according to the newspapers I can find. You have in recent time have decreased VAT's from 25% to 12% on the repair of larger household appliances, which have been decreased all the way down to 6%, right? - Is that being increased again by your new government?

Have you been repairing your appliances to a greater extent, as a consequence of the decreased VAT, or is that unchanged?

 

[Wish I had a cool name]

I'll put it this way: I've been enjoying my HD600 for 13yrs, and my Meier Cantate.2 for 11yrs until it started malfunctioning so I had to get an auxiliary amp, an Asgard3. The only things I've ever really constantly replaced were the replaceable parts like earpads, and cables that thankfully just pull out of the socket on the headphone ie no soldering required, and the source units which only really got replaced on a cycle because they're cheap from my carrier but now got permanently bumped down into being remote control or Spotify streamer for the new source unit, a DAP, that I hope I can get a battery for when the time comes.

So in other words: as far as audio is concerned, then I want reliability and obviously, I can do without buying stuff for a while.

But that's audio. My laptops break in one way or another but my needs also change, so some I never fixed, or that trash I got from Lenovo that just started falling apart that was too expensive to replace (although had it not fallen apart I wouldn't have replaced it back in 2019). I haven't broken anything on my desktops save for the Skylake rig that shorted, but even before then, I've done upgrades to things that aren't broken. Why? Just because it works, doesn't mean it works fine for what I need it to do. Sure that GTX 980 still runs four years later and barely even needed a repaste, but if it's not doing 60fps for a smooth gaming experience (and in the case of Total War games: rendering enough soldiers so the battlefield doesn't look empty), then it's not really working right anymore.

As you mentioned in your first post, with the string of phones that was given to relatives. Is that the same process when you are replacing a product like a laptop, or any other thing, what are you doing with it. Are you reselling the item, keeping it, trashing it?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

As you mentioned in your first post, with the string of phones that was given to relatives. Is that the same process when you are replacing a product like a laptop, or any other thing, what are you doing with it. Are you reselling the item, keeping it, trashing it?

Can't remember the last time I totally trashed the entire device. It was either sold or given away. If it was kind of broken whoever got it just got a new battery or something.
I've still got the POS Lenovo Yoga 11. Planning on using it to practice reboxing a laptop into an SFF desktop so I can sort of use it as a desktop audio server since it has a touchscreen.

 

[Wish I had a cool name]

Alright, that sounds like a great idea, actually.
When you are repurposing products like that, or selling and giving them away. Is that out of a sustainable thought, or is more based on economy, interest, or other factors?

 

[eobet]

I saw something about the taxes in Sweden, which actually was my next question. Please enlighten me a bit, as it seems like the VAT rules is rather inconsistent, at least according to the newspapers I can find. You have in recent time have decreased VAT's from 25% to 12% on the repair of larger household appliances, which have been decreased all the way down to 6%, right? - Is that being increased again by your new government?

Have you been repairing your appliances to a greater extent, as a consequence of the decreased VAT, or is that unchanged?

The only comment regarding the various VATs in Sweden I have is that it seems to correlate to what the politicians themselves want to make use of, for some strange reason.

But about repairs and obsolete tech, I have a broken 3D TV in the garage that I'm quite sad about. I liked the tech (with passive glasses) even though the industry went in the HDR direction (which I don't particularly care about). I attempted to repair it a few years ago, but there weren't any replacement parts available. The repair man told me that the board in question was notorious for breaking from that particular brand. I'm still holding on to it because I can't bear to throw it out. Maybe one day I'll make another attempt to have it repaired at a different place to see if the outcome is different.

 

[Wish I had a cool name]

The only comment regarding the various VATs in Sweden I have is that it seems to correlate to what the politicians themselves want to make use of, for some strange reason.

But about repairs and obsolete tech, I have a broken 3D TV in the garage that I'm quite sad about. I liked the tech (with passive glasses) even though the industry went in the HDR direction (which I don't particularly care about). I attempted to repair it a few years ago, but there weren't any replacement parts available. The repair man told me that the board in question was notorious for breaking from that particular brand. I'm still holding on to it because I can't bear to throw it out. Maybe one day I'll make another attempt to have it repaired at a different place to see if the outcome is different.

Yeah, let's not get political, at least if you don't want to

Manufacturers are becoming decent at retiring components which have a tendency to break.. Nudging you to buy a new instead.
Have that experience made you more prone to research more about products before buying them? To ensure you are not getting products that are notorious for malfunctioning?

 

[Amorph]

I tend to hold onto products till the day they die out, that's the case for most things except audio since I like to try out new stuff. Just recently I had to purchase a new kettle because the base of the old kettle stopped giving power, however luckily here in Germany the used market is full of everything that you would want, so I just bought a like new used kettle from there, not only to save money but to not contribute to the E-Waste crisis. I think that a lot of people though don't really care about that part and they only care about the money part so they will end up replacing the whole thing just because they can. When it comes to other electronics like phones, laptops or any electronic with a battery in it, unfortunately I don't have the know-how to unsolder and solder a new batte and tbh I don't have the courage either, so every like 3 years or something I have to replace them with new releases, knowing that the cycle will keep on going. Hopefully one day the right to repair movement will get more steam to the point of forcing companies to give the consumer the option to easily replace and to provide reasonably priced replacement components for their products, especially the battery compartment since that's the only failure that I can think of which is guaranteed, yeah sure the software is also a bottleneck but like I had used the Samsung Note 3 years after its release and it was fine because I had lineage os on it, which I guess means that all companies should give the user the freedom of choice to replace the OS, if their hearts desire. Am not saying that phones or products of that nature should be expected to be viable for a lifetime because then we are basically asking to kill off innovation and development, but it certainly nice to be able to hold onto it till it longer can do the things that I want it to, like how things ended up with my Note 3 and its rusty Snapdragon 800.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Alright, that sounds like a great idea, actually.
When you are repurposing products like that, or selling and giving them away. Is that out of a sustainable thought, or is more based on economy, interest, or other factors?

If it works, then it works.

If it doesn't work for what I need it to do, it still works for what someone else might need it to do. So it still works.

I'll put it another way: look at my clothes. What do I need them to do? Clothe me. What is the objective?

a. Keep me warm outside? OK this jacket is 10yrs old but it still does that. And when I bought it it was already "last season's trend." Who cares.

b. Keep my arse from sweating directly onto my chairs? These decade old gym shorts are still in one piece. (It helps I use gentle cycle on the machine)

c. Keep me from getting charged with indecent exposure or just not look like a sweaty arse (color)(body part between head and chest) or that I broke in and squatted in my own home when I pick up a package at the door? Look at these decade old gym shorts and twenty-year old shirts that have some small holes and tears and the round collar stitching looks like badly cooked Japanese bacon (they don't cure meat, so guess what that looks liike short of deep frying...yeah it looks more like bulgogi or gyudon, except it's red.)

In short...these are about the exact opposite of a tux for a friend's wedding or for attending an Embassy event where I'd end up shaking hands and probably be in photos too. I walk around looking like a borderline hobo in my own home, who cares.

Now apply that to audio and at least my 12yo HD600 can have new pads and cables so it doesn't look like a deflated, forgotten thing at a garage sale.

 

[Wish I had a cool name]

I tend to hold onto products till the day they die out, that's the case for most things except audio since I like to try out new stuff. Just recently I had to purchase a new kettle because the base of the old kettle stopped giving power, however luckily here in Germany the used market is full of everything that you would want, so I just bought a like new used kettle from there, not only to save money but to not contribute to the E-Waste crisis. I think that a lot of people though don't really care about that part and they only care about the money part so they will end up replacing the whole thing just because they can. When it comes to other electronics like phones, laptops or any electronic with a battery in it, unfortunately I don't have the know-how to unsolder and solder a new batte and tbh I don't have the courage either, so every like 3 years or something I have to replace them with new releases, knowing that the cycle will keep on going. Hopefully one day the right to repair movement will get more steam to the point of forcing companies to give the consumer the option to easily replace and to provide reasonably priced replacement components for their products, especially the battery compartment since that's the only failure that I can think of which is guaranteed, yeah sure the software is also a bottleneck but like I had used the Samsung Note 3 years after its release and it was fine because I had lineage os on it, which I guess means that all companies should give the user the freedom of choice to replace the OS, if their hearts desire. Am not saying that phones or products of that nature should be expected to be viable for a lifetime because then we are basically asking to kill off innovation and development, but it certainly nice to be able to hold onto it till it longer can do the things that I want it to, like how things ended up with my Note 3 and its rusty Snapdragon 800.

Thank you very much for contributing, and for your thoughts!

Instead of fearing the replacement of embedded battery (which I totally get, I'm there too!), are you then considering buying products which actually is modular and allows components to be replaced easily. Like the Fairphone? Or are you not compromising from the big brands?

 

[Amorph]

Thank you very much for contributing, and for your thoughts!

Instead of fearing the replacement of embedded battery (which I totally get, I'm there too!), are you then considering buying products which actually is modular and allows components to be replaced easily. Like the Fairphone? Or are you not compromising from the big brands?

I wanted to actually get into that topic but I was afraid that my post would get too long had I done so. Unfortunately at the time being I don't think the Fairphone is a good buy specs wise, like buying it feels like buying a phone that was made like 3 years ago, so I would never consider an option like that, however fortunately the framework laptops are getting really good and now they are innovating and competing with the top dogs like their new dedicated GPU card, so I can totally see myself considering buying a laptop from them when am in the market for one. And the happy news is that now the big companies are going to have to find solutions for ease of replacement and upgrade so they can compete with them, maybe not now as of right now but in the very soon future when more people get aware of Framework, because at that point they will financially motivated and no longer just motivated by the good the hearts sort to speak. Hopefully one day the same can be said to the smartphone market even with its much more complex design due to the small size factor, but we shall see.

 

[Wish I had a cool name]

I wanted to actually get into that topic but I was afraid that my post would get too long had I done so. Unfortunately at the time being I don't think the Fairphone is a good buy specs wise, like buying it feels like buying a phone that was made like 3 years ago, so I would never consider an option like that, however fortunately the framework laptops are getting really good and now they are innovating and competing with the top dogs like their new dedicated GPU card, so I can totally see myself considering buying a laptop from them when am in the market for one. And the happy news is that now the big companies are going to have to find solutions for ease of replacement and upgrade so they can compete with them, maybe not now as of right now but in the very soon future when more people get aware of Framework, because at that point they will financially motivated and no longer just motivated by the good the hearts sort to speak. Hopefully one day the same can be said to the smartphone market even with its much more complex design due to the small size factor, but we shall see.

No post is getting too long, for me, just go nuts

Do you think that Fairphone's lack of specs is a consequence of their modular design and philosophy, or is maybe just because it still is a small company without the resources to compete with the top dogs?
But in general, wouldn't a Fairphone or other modular products, that are designed to last for a long time, quickly become low spec'ed compared to products which are constantly innovated and upgraded? Isn't that just a part of being sustainability-aware?

 

[tomb]

This is an interesting topic, but it's swayed quite a bit in some answers away from audio and headphones.

"Obsolete" is an interesting term as well. If you're looking for technological obsolescence, then audio is a mixed culture. The advancements in analog audio technology are few and far between. The only instances I can think of off-hand are new materials or manufacturing methods that fundamentally change the structure of a component or device: new capacitor and resistor materials, new driver or housing materials, newly machined housings and chambers, etc. Other than that, there's really nothing that hasn't been applied before in analog. Some capacitors, for instance, may have been made 50 years ago and sound as good or better than modern capacitors in an audio-analog device. Changes in speakers and headphones definitely occur however, but much more slowly and are the result of better materials discoveries and processing, or new machining capabilities.

Another glaring example is tubes. A proper tube audio circuit can be made to sound and perform as good as any solid-state one. Head-Fi itself is filled with examples. Tubes made 50 years ago continue to perform and sound better than tubes made today. Used and "dated" audio equipment can also sound as good as modern equipment, once age-sensitive components such as electrolytic capacitors are replaced.

When it comes to digital, however, that's an entirely different matter. We've gone from needles on a tube or disc to magnetic tape, then laser-based CDs and now simply digital files themselves, used with PCs or smartphones. DAC chips and circuits continue to progress. Although since "analog" is a primary component, that progress and supposed obsolescence is sometimes questionable. I've seen the market gobble up smaller DAC-chip producers not because they didn't sound as good, but because they weren't in a financially superior position. The larger DAC maker then chose to kill its newly-acquired chips to maintain market share of its own, poorer sounding chips. (Wolfson has been the victim of this.) That's an unfortunate result of cut-throat business practices that fail the consumer when artistic preference is supposed to be the goal, obsolescence having nothing to do with it.