[mrdeadfolx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif What thread we don't need is another Placebo affects everything thread. Basically another thread about how if we don't believe in what you define as "true" then we are all wasting our time. This is what makes Head-fi tiring. People who seem to think they are experts on things like placebo, cables, ABX, ERS paper, tweaks, etc, and we are all ignorant if we don't believe in their way of thinking. Rather than sharing experiences, it is about telling us how you think one way of thinking is better than the other or trying to invalidate our experience.

I think you have misunderstood me. I do not claim to be an expert at anything here, if you read the rest of the posts here you would have already gathered that information. I am the first here to share in my new experiences and give all the useful input I can, but I think oftentimes people WAY overstate things in order to either fit in here or convince themselves they have not wasted money. There is a very fine line between what is oftentimes imagined here and what is useful information to another potential buyer of the same product. The problem is (according to hundreds of members here, not just myself, like you seem to think) there is so much overstated or just plain imagined information here, that that line is blurred, and its becoming harder to make an informed purchase. I came into this thread with my flame suit zipped all the way up, but hearing someone say their new 2400mah battery has just given them cleaner bass and more expansive soundstage is just plain annoying.

 

[hempcamp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrdeadfolx /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think oftentimes people WAY overstate things in order to either fit in here or convince themselves they have not wasted money. There is a very fine line between what is oftentimes imagined here and what is useful information to another potential buyer of the same product. The problem is (according to hundreds of members here, not just myself, like you seem to think) there is so much overstated or just plain imagined information here, that that line is blurred, and its becoming harder to make an informed purchase.

I agree. The forum in the past couple of years has tended toward absolutist/flagrant/hyperbolic statements (i.e. the K701 has NO bass, the 6G iPod isn't even worth listening to, etc etc etc) rather than critical discussion.

I think a lot has to do with the younger age of forum members, unfortunately. It takes a while to filter out the fluff and overstatement, but deep down Head-fi still has its value.

--Chris

 

[AC1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrdeadfolx /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think you have misunderstood me. I do not claim to be an expert at anything here, if you read the rest of the posts here you would have already gathered that information. I am the first here to share in my new experiences and give all the useful input I can, but I think oftentimes people WAY overstate things in order to either fit in here or convince themselves they have not wasted money. There is a very fine line between what is oftentimes imagined here and what is useful information to another potential buyer of the same product. The problem is (according to hundreds of members here, not just myself, like you seem to think) there is so much overstated or just plain imagined information here, that that line is blurred, and its becoming harder to make an informed purchase. I came into this thread with my flame suit zipped all the way up, but hearing someone say their new 2400mah battery has just given them cleaner bass and more expansive soundstage is just plain annoying.

You insist you are no expert but want to police what is of value to us. And decided to make a thread called "placebo" which clearly shows you have made up your mind how you see the things that you do not agree with on here, wether you have experienced it or not but insist that it is the "truth".

Now do I agree that there is placebo, or that there is plenty of BS/hyperbole on here. Absolutely. However your view on how things as placebo is as annoying as the people on here that insist that one headphone like the R10, Orpheus, HP1/2 etc is the best headphone in existence and the best for all of us so that anything else isn't worth listening to.

 

[ccontreras]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj_mocok /img/forum/go_quote.gif This thread reminds me of The Matrix.

Because you asked!

Matrix-HiFi

 

[mrdeadfolx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AC1 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You insist you are no expert but want to police what is of value to us. And decided to make a thread called "placebo" which clearly shows you have made up your mind how you see the things that you do not agree with on here, wether you have experienced it or not but insist that it is the "truth". Now do I agree that there is placebo, or that there is plenty of BS/hyperbole on here. Absolutely. However your view on how things as placebo is as annoying as the people on here that insist that one headphone like the R10, Orpheus, HP1/2 etc is the best headphone in existence and the best for all of us so that anything else isn't worth listening to.

My view on placebo is coming from someone who has tried with every ounce of their being to almost force myself to view things the same way as one I am suspecting is affected by said placebo, and often come to the conclusion (in MY OWN OPINION, not yours) that maybe the listener is convincing themself to believe something is there that is not. Why are you putting quotations around the word "truth"? I never said (and certainly never INSISTED as you point out) my view was the truth, who are you quoting? What I state is my opinion ONLY, quit trying to make it look like I'm forcing my opinion onto you, I am merely sharing MY findings with you, whether or not you agree with it is your call. You say yourself that you agree that there is placebo/BS/hyperbole on here, that is the exact point I am making. Because you chose not to use examples of what you find to be BS/hyperbole, your view of it is not "annoying" and mine is?

 

[AC1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrdeadfolx /img/forum/go_quote.gif My view on placebo is coming from someone who has tried with every ounce of their being to almost force myself to view things the same way as one I am suspecting is affected by said placebo, and often come to the conclusion (in MY OWN OPINION, not yours) that maybe the listener is convincing themself to believe something is there that is not. Why are you putting quotations around the word "truth"? I never said (and certainly never INSISTED as you point out) my view was the truth, who are you quoting? What I state is my opinion ONLY, quit trying to make it look like I'm forcing my opinion onto you, I am merely sharing MY findings with you, whether or not you agree with it is your call. You say yourself that you agree that there is placebo/BS/hyperbole on here, that is the exact point I am making. Because you chose not to use examples of what you find to be BS/hyperbole, your view of it is not "annoying" and mine is?

I did give you an example, about fanatics of certain type of headphones. You are in a way a "fanatic" of placebo.
It is like starting a thread saying why would anybody listen to anything other than R10s and that since they are the best headphone no other equipment like amps, sources, etc can be evaluated correctly unless R10s were used.
That is what this thread is like to me. My opinion of course.

 

[dj_mocok]

MrDeadfolx,

Maybe you have reverse placebo - there IS actually a difference, but since you're set to be so skeptic, even though your ears hear it, but your mind is resisting the information your ears sent?

Have you thought about that? So your brain is the placebo culprit. Mind boggling huh?

Hmm... either that or maybe you suffer from reverse-double-reverse placebo...

 

[ecclesand]

I look at it this way....if it is placebo or not...who cares? If you buy that expensive piece of gear and you hear a difference and/or improvement, then that's great...good for you. If you don't hear a difference and/or improvement, then sell it and be happy that you saved some cash.

So what about when you're trying to purchase a piece of audio gear. How do you sort thru what is fact and what is placebo? Should you research and choose something based on people's written word or hear it for yourself? Here's my take on that...when I'm researching a headphone to purchase, I look for those things that 95% of folks agree on. For example...I was looking for a good closed headphone that had deep, impactful bass with excellent detail. My budget was $300. Based on my research, the general consensus on Head-Fi is that the Ultrasone PL750 has good bass. As for details, soundstage, and all that other stuff, I have to let my ears decide that. So, I bought the PL750 and I'm currently evaluating it to see if it meets my needs. If it does, then I will keep it. If not, I will sell it. Could this potentially get expensive? You bet, but you can minimize losses by buying used or b stock equipment. I've learned over the years that I have to evaluate audio equipment via my own ears and not through someone's impressions.

It's been said many times before...let your own ears decide whether something sounds good to you. And don't worry if others don't hear what you hear or you don't hear what others say they hear. In the end, it's what sounds good to you.

 

[shigzeo]

well, without placebo, the vast majority of audiophilium (word?) would not exist. we exist really because coupled with some very good upgrades, the details are threshed out in placebo and personal preferences both of which are augmented by the very powerful dollar.

 

[Austin 3:16]

I take sugar pills before critical listening.

 

[OverlordXenu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl /img/forum/go_quote.gif I like wine as much as the next guy. But turn me loose in some wine-tasting festival and ask me to tell you which wine is best, and you've made a terrible mistake. Truth is, most of the time I can be just as happy with a $5 bottle as a $50 bottle. Does that mean I think all gourmets or wine experts are full of hot air and their observations are all placebo? No, I acknowledge that there is a class of people for whom wine is more of an obsession than it is for me, and who have developed their taste buds over time and experience and endless sampling far beyond a level that is attainable by me. There are also people who will always prefer McDonalds over filet mignon. I accept some wines are better than others. Do I trust in my ability to discern which is which 100% of the time? No. And I'm OK with that.

You see, wine tasters participate in double-blind tests, whereas people on this forum swear against them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecclesand /img/forum/go_quote.gif I look at it this way....if it is placebo or not...who cares? If you buy that expensive piece of gear and you hear a difference and/or improvement, then that's great...good for you. If you don't hear a difference and/or improvement, then sell it and be happy that you saved some cash.

The issue is that people say they here these huge, drastic changes, when they probably don't, then go and recommend that everyone must go and get $13,000 power cables right away. (Hyperbole used for effect.)

If their $13,000 power cable gives them piece of mind and makes them think their system is at its best, then good for them. But they shouldn't go around recommending it to others. That is the issue.

 

[shigzeo]

there is also the issue of someone swearing that product a is much better than product b though there is no grounds for it. when it comes down to most bashing (for which i too have been guilty) it is mostly personal preference and or, going with what you have been told. chances are that if you hear that a product sounds good on this forum, you are already poisoned.

our op here has been hit hard in many threads because he is honest: he hears little or no difference between players. i have never blind listened to other than files of varying quality. it is much harder to do with portable equipment but no one does double or even blind listening. the sound is always different when you know what you are listening to and looking at it. it would be fun to have unknown music play from players of various types set to volume matched and connected through one amp just to see which player actually everyone likes.

someone on the cowon forums did this sort of, but not scientifically and was surprised which player was preferred by many. his methods were very flawed but they revealed bias when it comes to looks and foreknowledge versus blindness.

our op has what i think is a very good point.

 

[mrdeadfolx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj_mocok /img/forum/go_quote.gif MrDeadfolx, Maybe you have reverse placebo - there IS actually a difference, but since you're set to be so skeptic, even though your ears hear it, but your mind is resisting the information your ears sent? Have you thought about that? So your brain is the placebo culprit. Mind boggling huh? Hmm... either that or maybe you suffer from reverse-double-reverse placebo...

While that is a very interesting point, if I resisted the information sent to my ears and psychologically refused to accept improvements to my gear, I would be content with ibuds, and probably not nearly as passionate about audio or this forum as I am....probably not as broke because of it either

 

[OverlordXenu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif there is also the issue of someone swearing that product a is much better than product b though there is no grounds for it. when it comes down to most bashing (for which i too have been guilty) it is mostly personal preference and or, going with what you have been told. chances are that if you hear that a product sounds good on this forum, you are already poisoned. our op here has been hit hard in many threads because he is honest: he hears little or no difference between players. i have never blind listened to other than files of varying quality. it is much harder to do with portable equipment but no one does double or even blind listening. the sound is always different when you know what you are listening to and looking at it. it would be fun to have unknown music play from players of various types set to volume matched and connected through one amp just to see which player actually everyone likes. someone on the cowon forums did this sort of, but not scientifically and was surprised which player was preferred by many. his methods were very flawed but they revealed bias when it comes to looks and foreknowledge versus blindness. our op has what i think is a very good point.

Do you remember my thread?

 

[mbriant]

Quote:

our op here has been hit hard in many threads because he is honest: he hears little or no difference between players.

I disagree. Being honest isn't the problem. If someone doesn't hear a difference, they should say so. Where these sort of threads go wrong, is when along with "I personally don't hear a difference", other comments and/or insinuations are made that those who do or claim to hear a difference must therefore be wrong. Things like "having to wade through 20 opinions to get some accurate information" is essentially saying "opinions I disagree with are are wrong". People find that insulting. Saying things like 'My hearing is perfect and I don't hear a difference" is essentially saying "My hearing is perfect, therefore that's conclusive proof that what I'm hearing is real and anyone who differs is wrong." Also, exaggerations like "Everybody, or somebody "swears something makes a drastic difference", is insulting because very few people post that they "swear" that something sounds good/bad, they simply relay their experience. Painting everyone the same with broad strokes ... especially when exaggeration is added to the mix ... creates anger, not rational discussion, and is every bit as annoying and non-productive as the problem being complained about. In the second sentence of the original post the OP states "I have read so many ridiculous posts..." so right off the bat, anyone and everyone who has ever heard or thought they heard a difference between cables, iPods, or whatever are being told their posts are ridiculous. People find that insulting. The OP has emphatically called a huge group of unidentified posts as ridiculous based on his own opinion of what he's determined is and isn't ridiculous. That's rather presumptuous and it's insulting to those who immediately feel grouped in with this accusation....including myself who despite always leaning heavily towards the non-believer camp, recently posted that I personally found a difference between the sound of 5 and 6 gen iPods. The way it was presented, two sentences into the OPs thread and I personally felt I was being attacked and insulted and having my own, very real to me experience dismissed as being ridiculous. I certainly wasn't the only one. I don't mean to pick specifically on the OP about this sort of thing, because just like the problem the OP is complaining about, these sort of "What I think is right, is right and everyone else is wrong" confrontational posts are also much too common not just on Head-fi, but all over the internet.

It's all in the way an opinion is given. If it's presented as an opinion, with an open mind and with the understanding that one recognises others not only have a right to an opposing opinion, but they also may have accurate points to make as well, productive and fruitful discussion can ensue. If it's presented and comes across as "I don't hear a difference therefore there is no difference and there cannot possibly be a difference ... or worse ... as a snide, sarcastic, quip or exaggerated analogy (I'm not saying the OP did this, but there are several others who have in this thread and have many times in the past) then the possibility of civil discussion is ended before it can even start, people get their backs up and close ranks, and it turns into an insult match with everone defending their own personal beliefs and shutting out the possibility that maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle.