[mrdeadfolx]

I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed it other than myself, but it seems like placebo is taking over Head-fi lately. I have read so many ridiculous posts that I finally had to make a thread about it, because I feel like if I am to make an informed (yet blind) purchase, I have to get about 20 opinions before I feel like I've got the real dirt and weeded through all the placebo-opinions. I know I don't have a tin ear, my hearing is checked regularly and as far I know its perfect, and yet I am able to hear so little of what others are ranting and raving about so often.

I have come across threads where people are talking about replacing the cable on their UE Super .fi 5 Pro's with a Westone ES2 cable, and saying that since the cable change, they have heard "cleaner treble, expansive soundstage, more controlled bass, more forward mids, etc.". Or all the threads that compare the differences in recent iPod generations. If you believed everything you read you would think that the iPod 5g and 6g sound NOTHING alike, when to my ears they are almost identical. So close its not worth making a thread over.

A few threads kinda talked me into replacing my ALO bling bling dock to an ALO jumbo cryo, telling me how amazing the difference would be. I can safely say there was NO difference whatsoever, and I would say anyone who said otherwise would fail the Pepsi challenge. I have heard people talk about SQ changes since getting BATTERIES replaced. Give me a break. I wouldnt be surprised if soon I saw threads that said "Got a new iPod case, UNBELIEVABLE SOUNDSTAGE!"

My question is, why? Do some not want to feel like theyve wasted money, so they force themselves to swear by products that arent making much of a difference in their rigs, or do some people just have incredible golden ears that can hear things my ears will never be able to process? I just want to be able to rely on the information given to me by the members here, so many know exactly what theyre talking about, but it would be so much easier if so many weren't affected by placebo. What gives? /rant

EDIT: This thread was not started with the intention of igniting any of the dreaded cable debates, a couple examples I used just happened to involve cables. I was referring to everything audio related, including different bit-rates, differences amps make, driver burn-in, custom IEM tips, differences mods make, source comparisons, etc. If my post seemed to focus more towards cables, I apologize, this was not my intention.

 

[GreatDane]

Great rant. I refuse to fall into the cable debate, or even discuss.

I think its much easier to hear differences in amps and that's about where I stop.

 

[Duggeh]

One man's placebo is another man's awesome upgrade.

I see it thusly:


If placebo sounds good to the listener, then it is good placebo.

1)Other people may, when presented with the information on this audio particularity, decide for themselves via context and their own experience, that the experience in question was placebo or real for the subject who posted the context.

Their decision in this matter is founded in their own personal experience in the world of audio and their own understanding of the physical and psychological factors that may have contributed to the original persons description of their experience.

Discussion of the original persons experience then results.

2)The degree to which differences and/or changes in the perception of audio and rendered are as much dependant on the context of the differences as upon the individuals perception of them.

A change in the speaker used to listen to music, will, of course ( I think we can agree) result in a larger change in the character of the reproduced sound.

However, a change in the source of that sound which is of less technological/budgetary/designer/establishmental consequence will result (by physics or by psychologically related perception [please refer to section 1]) when there is a change between two similar piece of equipment. To use the OPs example. Two subsequent generations of iPod.

The difference between an iPod and an iPod, is larger than the difference in an iPod and an iPod, however, the difference in between and iPod and an iPod is still less than the difference between a loudspeaker and a loudspeaker.

This does not however, mean that the difference between and iPod and an iPod does not exist.

In order to convey these differences, the subject must employ the vocabulary used in the description of audio. The use of such vocabulary though is tied to the context, which is one of less exponential perceptive change than may or may not exist in another comparison of other equipment.

So, the better bass, cleaner treble and more cleanly defined headstaging ability offered when one upgrades from the iPod 5G to the iPod 6G, while described in the same terms as the changes that will occur when one upgrades from the Sennheiser MX550 earbud to the UE10 Pro Custom, are smaller in their scope and less grand in their relevance.

3) This does not mean that the difference does not exist, simply because it is smaller.

4) This is where the debate, ultimately lies regarding placebo.

Where one draws the line at what is an audible change is down to that persons experience and belief. If you do not hear a change, then you believe that there is not one, and think that those who do hear it either:

A) Have better ability to hear than you do.

or B) You do not have an good enough ability to hear.

or C) They are making it up.

And yes, they may hear things which do not exist, based on how much they have spent or what they expect.

The separation process is down to little more than the battle between popular opinion and minority argument, both side of which may use whatever subjective or imperial arguments they want.

Ultimately, no listener is free form placebo. And only more and more experience and more and more listening and more and more self scrutiny as well as the scrutiny of the equipment and the audio will result in a shrinkage of that placebo.

Many rejoice in their progression along these lines. Training their ears and their brains. Others are quite happy to accept the face value of audio products without much more question than their casual ear.

Neither of these listener camps is wrong and neither is right. What is important for the one (like yourself) who seeks information. Is to know something about the context of the opinions that you read as well as their content.

__

Gods i hope that all made sense.

 

[goldenratiophi]

Welcome to Head-Fi, sorry about your wallet!

Oh wait....

Anyway, I guess the locked door to the cables forum burst and it seems some of those posts leaked out into the other forums. Sorry about that.

I don't know why either side even tries to argue with the other. It's so incredibly fruitless.

/my coming out as a huge skeptic lol

I've always agreed that placebo isn't necessarily bad if it makes you feel better. I know I can't tell 256 from FLAC but encode lossless anyway. I can't make myself like expensive cables better though. :-/

okay that should cover everything I feel like saying

 

[Kirosia]

Pretzels makes everything sound better.

 

[goldenratiophi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirosia /img/forum/go_quote.gif Pretzels makes everything sound better.

I am a firm believer in pretzel-churro equality. I had both today and they got along quite well under my rule.

(and they both made all the sound around me better

)

 

[xnothingpoetic]

I foresee this thread will explode- hopefully it will stay away from the cable talk

But I agree, but I just learn to weed out the good and bad post pretty quickly. And if I come close to making a purchase I double check my sources/opinions and see if they are valid enough. Then I buy and listing to make my own judgments- then I keep or sell.

 

[fraseyboy]

Woo got in before page 2! *Prepares for thread explosion*

I agree. People are silly.

 

[Omega]

In a noisy system (like Head-fi, full of opinions), there are at least two methods for identifying a signal (like a good, objectively verifiable opinion). 1) Consensus scoring. If the masses agree that something is better, it may be. Suffers from a low sensitivity (ie, misses many good opinions), but has a low false positive rate; 2) Find a single predictor that is highly correlated with signal, and ride that pony to the bank...that is, identify a poster who shares your same taste, but has far more time/money to explore than you do.

It is pretty trivial to employ the first strategy--just read popular posts and buy accordingly. It is more difficult to employ the second...it takes some effort to identify correlates, and validate them. I believe, since many people aren't willing to invest the time/brainpower/effort, the first strategy prevails around here.

Since the first strategy does not require you to understand your own taste, it is possible to buy stuff that "should" be good, and later be unable to discern any double blind difference. People are always quick to point out that one likes to be a "cool kid" and have well-respected stuff, or justify their expenditure as making a sonic difference...but perhaps this is another reason.

 

[davidr2287]

So what pretzel would you guys recommend? Im trying to upgrade my rig and have about ~$100 to spare, is spending the xtra cash on the salted pretzel really worth? Do they really increase the soundstage as some say? I listen mainly to classical so dont know how good that combo would be

 

[goldenratiophi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidr2287 /img/forum/go_quote.gif So what pretzel would you guys recommend? Im trying to upgrade my rig and have about ~$100 to spare, is spending the xtra cash on the salted pretzel really worth? Do they really increase the soundstage as some say? I listen mainly to classical so dont know how good that combo would be

Doesn't matter where you get it from. Go unsalted though; aftermarket salts will make a HUGE difference. I can't explain how it works, you just gotta try for yourself! I swear if power is 50% of the sound and the rack is 30%, then the salt is at least 15%!

 

[davidr2287]

does the pretzel need burn in??

 

[fraseyboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidr2287 /img/forum/go_quote.gif does the pretzel need burn in??

Mmm yeah, at at least 200 celcius.

 

[goldenratiophi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidr2287 /img/forum/go_quote.gif does the pretzel need burn in??

Some exposure to heat is necessary, but too much can actually make it worse. YMMV

 

[Kirosia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidr2287 /img/forum/go_quote.gif does the pretzel need burn in??

Only if you want it to sound like charcoal.

Chocolate-covered pretzels are the best. Everyone hears a difference.