[Aynjell]

I got to thinking tonite while listening to my headphones... what constitutes legal ownership of an album, or even what logical reasoning is there to buy an album? What fullproof argument is there?
 
Suppose we say "To support the artist", an equally powerful counter argument is the second hand market. What benefit exists to the artist when I purchased my copy of Ok Computer used at a local store? What about the copy of Overseer's Wreckage I bought that was a promotional copy (as in, gold lettering supposedly not for sale but I always buy these on the spot since they're special in some way).
 
Let's say we draw the line at having the album and being able to hold it... doesn't that rule out the digital distribution methods that exist (though I will justify myself in saying I don't ever buy music digitally, though amazon is usually nice enough to give me money towards mp3's on a lot of my purchases)?
 
What about just being able to say "I paid for it"? What good is that even? I could pay for an illegal copy just as well (though I wouldn't do so). Or somebody else could gift it to me, and who's to say they didn't steal it? What's to say the CD's I bought at a second hand store weren't originally stolen?
 
You can't even legally distinguish it as "I can sell it legally" because of above arguments (digital distribution, possibly stolen earlier on in the products lifetime).
 
What is the logic of not pirating the music? What distinguishes you from a pirate? What common and central theme exists when you PAY for something legally? How do you set the rule? At what point do you legally own the album without ruling the many possible methods of purchasing said album out? At what point am I justified? Every album in my collection is legally owned, but so many of them were bought second hand that I couldn't help but question it...
 
Hrm, here's a thought: "At some point either the artist agreed that this album should be free, or that it was purchased legally by it's first owner/licensee." That seems to ring true with just about everything, although it still raises the red flag or two about buying used because you can't verify it.
 
As a disclaimer, I am not endorsing piracy nor am I saying I do so... personally I think the effort put into finding good high quality verifiable (as in, bitaccurate) gapless copies tedious. Hell I can't even get such a high quality album from Nine Inch Nails when they put out their free album.

 

[Uncle Erik]

You're right, there is a gray area.

The approach I take is not to even enter into the gray area. I try to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. All my music is from discs that I actually own. Buying used is completely legal, so that is what I mostly do. Piracy, for better or worse, has killed the used market. Used CDs are dead cheap today, so I take advantage of the prices. I only rip CDs I own. I occasionally download music from archive.org, but everything there is in the public domain.

It's important to me to be entirely clean in this area. I don't like Big Music and think their business model has completely failed. However, I do not want them pointing to me as the reason they failed.

I wish more people would take this approach. Big Music whines about piracy as the reason their business model is failing. If everyone bought used, they wouldn't have that lame excuse.

 

[moriez]

moriez awaits Prog Rock Man's say

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Here is the bass player Trey Gunn's attitude to free downloading
 
http://www.treygunn.com/blog/2010/7/19/free-downloading-and-the-creative-process-part-one.html
 
and piracy
 
http://www.treygunn.com/blog/2010/7/28/the-whinging-musician-and-downloading-part-two.html

 

[Aynjell]

Quote:

Here is the bass player Trey Gunn's attitude to free downloading
 
http://www.treygunn.com/blog/2010/7/19/free-downloading-and-the-creative-process-part-one.html
 
and piracy
 
http://www.treygunn.com/blog/2010/7/28/the-whinging-musician-and-downloading-part-two.html

I suppose I should point out I'm asking at what point is your acquisition of the music LEGAL? I don't pirate. So that's less of a concern, at what point and I'm doing the right thing. Where is the line drawn between legally and illegally acquired?

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Within the links are other musicians impressions and thoughts, including Peter Gabriel. They realise that they are putting their product out into the public domain and that at times it will used reasonably and at others the use will be abused.
 
Legally acquired goods and services are those that have been paid for, given freely or loaned with the knowledge of both parties. In Scotland you can illegally posses property by
 
- stealing it as in you have no right of use and you take it without the owners permission
 
- finding it, where you do not take reasonable steps to return the property of its owner or hand it in to a relevant authority (the police, lost and found at a railway station etc)
 
- clandestine possession, where you borrow something without permission and in the knowledge that if you had asked for permission it would have been refused
 
- robbery and or extortion, where violence or threat of violence was used to obtain property of another
 
- forgery and uttering
 
- reset, where you take possession of property that has been stolen by someone else
 
- fraud, where you enter a scheme to deprive someones else of their property
 
- embezzlement, where you have authority and control over property and you take it for your own use
 
- plagium, which was stealing a child, but it is no longer in use.
 
I would say that ownership is pretty black and white. If you pay for or are loaned or are given music that has been legally obtained, there is no issue.

 

[AmanGeorge]

 
Quote:

You're right, there is a gray area.

The approach I take is not to even enter into the gray area. I try to avoid even the appearance of impropriety. All my music is from discs that I actually own. Buying used is completely legal, so that is what I mostly do. Piracy, for better or worse, has killed the used market. Used CDs are dead cheap today, so I take advantage of the prices. I only rip CDs I own. I occasionally download music from archive.org, but everything there is in the public domain.

It's important to me to be entirely clean in this area. I don't like Big Music and think their business model has completely failed. However, I do not want them pointing to me as the reason they failed.

I wish more people would take this approach. Big Music whines about piracy as the reason their business model is failing. If everyone bought used, they wouldn't have that lame excuse.

 
This is my approach as well - lots of used CDs that I then rip. My intentions are probably not totally pure (I'd be open to re-selling or swapping used CDs while still keeping the ripped files), but to date my unwavering laziness has kept me in check and I just have a pile of used CDs.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Scotland's first music piracy conviction was in 2008 and the chap got three years in prison.
 
http://absolvitor.com/2008/07/25/bpi-tackles-music-piracy/
 

 

[Aynjell]

Quote:

Scotland's first music piracy conviction was in 2008 and the chap got three years in prison.
 
http://absolvitor.com/2008/07/25/bpi-tackles-music-piracy/
 

This, despite the subject title has nothing to do with the current discussion, sir.

 

[Aynjell]

Quote:

Within the links are other musicians impressions and thoughts, including Peter Gabriel. They realise that they are putting their product out into the public domain and that at times it will used reasonably and at others the use will be abused.
 
Legally acquired goods and services are those that have been paid for, given freely or loaned with the knowledge of both parties. In Scotland you can illegally posses property by
 
- stealing it as in you have no right of use and you take it without the owners permission
 
- finding it, where you do not take reasonable steps to return the property of its owner or hand it in to a relevant authority (the police, lost and found at a railway station etc)
 
- clandestine possession, where you borrow something without permission and in the knowledge that if you had asked for permission it would have been refused
 
- robbery and or extortion, where violence or threat of violence was used to obtain property of another
 
- forgery and uttering
 
- reset, where you take possession of property that has been stolen by someone else
 
- fraud, where you enter a scheme to deprive someones else of their property
 
- embezzlement, where you have authority and control over property and you take it for your own use
 
- plagium, which was stealing a child, but it is no longer in use.
 
I would say that ownership is pretty black and white. If you pay for or are loaned or are given music that has been legally obtained, there is no issue.

So how do I determine then if a CD I purchased at a used store was purchased legally origionally? No such store in my area offers a gaurunteed known good warranty, not that they could trace it to me. I'd be not liable I'd think anyway... if I bought a CD from CD Tradepost, it was done so without either parties knowledge it was illegally obtained.
 
But again, I can't help but question it, a used item, one that was purchased from it's original retailer has already served it's purpose, in giving royalties to the parties involved in it's production. I know a lot of companies are TRYING to eliminate the second hand market, (EA, I think I hate you). Once it's purchased, the item only holds value to the person who owned it, and or sold it... for that matter.
 
I dunno... I suppose it's clear cut what's legal and what's not. I've sort of lost my train of thought since last night. I suppose most appropriately: "At every change of ownership it was agreed upon by both parties an appropriate level of remission, and it was done so appropriately according to local legislation..." or something similar... basically from the time it left the factory it changed hands legally each time, that'd be where they draw the line.
 
I wasn't so much looking for that gray area or trying to cross the line, I wanted a SIMPLE WAY to DEFINE that line. I suppose nobody understood it. Like I said, I have a stack of legal CD's and would be glad to snap a picture of it.

 

[Prog Rock Man]

As for second had shops, well you have got me there, you would have no idea that they have not been stolen and the shop is resetting them. If you do buy stolen property it is either a civil matter between you and the previous owner, or if they have had an insurance pay out, the insurance company.
 
If someone sells you something very cheaply, if it turns out to be stolen you can be charged with reset as it is a rogues bargain. That is where anyone who bought the goods should know better and be suspicious.

 

[Uncle Erik]

If you buy something from a store, in good faith, and have no reason to suspect it was stolen, then you're fine. If the store owner tells you that the disc was stolen, then you're in trouble if you buy it.

There are other details and circumstances that apply, but you're generally safe buying something you think is legitimate. Most criminal laws look at your intent. If you don't have the intent, you won't get in trouble.

Also, this "possibly stolen" argument gets kicked around as a red herring in piracy discussions. Even if you accidentally buy stolen goods, that's no excuse for stealing.

Buy what you listen to unless it is public domain. It's not a difficult concept. When you're honest, you can give the middle finger to Big Music and there's nothing they can do about it.

 

[Aynjell]

Quote:

If you buy something from a store, in good faith, and have no reason to suspect it was stolen, then you're fine. If the store owner tells you that the disc was stolen, then you're in trouble if you buy it.

There are other details and circumstances that apply, but you're generally safe buying something you think is legitimate. Most criminal laws look at your intent. If you don't have the intent, you won't get in trouble.

Also, this "possibly stolen" argument gets kicked around as a red herring in piracy discussions. Even if you accidentally buy stolen goods, that's no excuse for stealing.

Buy what you listen to unless it is public domain. It's not a difficult concept. When you're honest, you can give the middle finger to Big Music and there's nothing they can do about it.

 
I just wanted to know where everyone else draws the line, as it's a pretty fun idea to discuss. At what point are you doing the right thing? Do you feel you have to support the artist, or do just enough to be inside the law?
 

 

[KnightK]

Quote:

 
I just wanted to know where everyone else draws the line, as it's a pretty fun idea to discuss. At what point are you doing the right thing? Do you feel you have to support the artist, or do just enough to be inside the law?
 

I would say a guilt-free feeling and self-respect are the most important reasons. I don't really do it to support most of the artists, but for my satisfaction. (Matter of fact, some of my favorite artists have been dead for hundreds of years

).

 

[chesebert]

Think of music on a CD or, for that matter, a FLAC file as simply a license from the licensor (big music) to you (licensee) for you to play and enjoy that music.  (remember when an artist signs a deal with a big music, the artist has already gotten his bargain of exchange; so the line "supporting the artist" means very little, if anything at all)
 
You are the owner of a very limited license and you have to abide by the rules governing that license, among the many is the rule prohibiting public playing (cuz you don't got that license) or mass distribution (not that license either).  Always remember big music owns the property which is the actual performance by the artist as expressed in a physical format, whether it being bits in the computer or groves on a CD, not you. You just get a license to play among other lawful fair uses.
 
Of course, since you are the owner of a limited license (a property right), you can certainly trade,sell or otherwise alienate that license (property) to another (e.g. used CD or FLAC (this gets in the gray area)). Now, because strict compliance with this limited license is very draconian and is not how ordinary folks use music, there are exceptions to the rules so that you can use your license 'fairly' (e.g. make back-up copies of your CD or FLAC).
 
Hope this helps.