[Metron]

I have eventually acquired a pair of SE-M5 and I'm in the burn-in phase. Has anyone experience with burn-in on these headphones: how much burn-in time is it recommended/required and what difference is expected to make?

 

[Sonic Defender]

I have eventually acquired a pair of SE-M5 and I'm in the burn-in phase. Has anyone experience with burn-in on these headphones: how much burn-in time is it recommended/required and what difference is expected to make?

Burn-in really occurs in your brain, not mechanically so listen to music as you get used to the new sound signature, and don't go back and forth between headphones at all. Worst thing you can do. Your brain needs to acclimate to a new sound signature, which is what burn-in really is.

 

[Metron]

Burn-in really occurs in your brain, not mechanically so listen to music as you get used to the new sound signature, and don't go back and forth between headphones at all. Worst thing you can do. Your brain needs to acclimate to a new sound signature, which is what burn-in really is.

I was referring to the headphones and the moving parts do burn in. The brain does no such thing unless you’re thinking placebo. I listen to my different headphones and they sound as different now as they were quite some time ago, irrespective of how much I listen to one or another.

 

[arturro13]

Burn-in really occurs in your brain, not mechanically so listen to music as you get used to the new sound signature, and don't go back and forth between headphones at all. Worst thing you can do. Your brain needs to acclimate to a new sound signature, which is what burn-in really is.

Why going back and forth between headphones is so terrible? I am doing this quite often having multiple headphones in collection. Depends on type of music I am listening or my mood I chose different styles of sound presentation. Adaptation is almost immediate i don't need to "burn" my brain each time

I understand someone can be used to some style while listening to one particular headphone for long and coming to another require some time to forget about previous as the reference. But I don't see a point in avoiding quick comparisons. It can be quite educative. Of course in responsible amount, because listening and enjoying music should come first.

 

[Pendel]

Of course one can do whatever one wants to experiment. I beleve that what Sonic Defender is trying to say is this. If you would like to see how a pair of headphones will sound to you in the long run, let your brain adjust to their dynamics without frequent can hopping.
He is right that it is the brain perception and not the mechanics that are changing. The effect of the softening of the diaphragm is far too slight to be perceptable. On the other hand, the collapsing of the pads has a perceptable effect, but that takes quite a while under normal circumstances.

 

[arturro13]

From my experience I didn't notice huge changes with burning-in headphones, but I made a small experiment some time age. I had a pair of new HD600 and didn't like it very much. I also owned back then older version of HD600 and it sounded to me warmer and softer (even on exactly the same earpads). So I pluged-in the new ones for few days (with some breaks without playing music) and I was checking how they sound several times for couple of minutes only. For me the new HD600 started to be warmer with little more low-end (after more than 100 hours) but the change wasn't night and day, still less enjoyable than my older pair. But having them both to compare allowed me to be quite sure about changes that were happening during this process. This approach also rules-out the "brain burn-in" part and pads adaptation.

 

[GREQ]

The brain does no such thing unless you’re thinking placebo.

Actually false.
There are also other factors to consider which apply to the same topic, for example:

• Volume perception is much lower early in the morning than in the evening.
This is due to your brain basically 'turning off' your ears while you sleep, and gradually adjusting to all the ambient noise during the day.

• Volume perception affects how loudly you turn the volume up on your equipment.
This in turn can directly affect the headphone's frequency response, as headphones do not produce perfectly identical frequency responses at different volumes.

If we're talking placebo - mechanical burn-in is the real placebo 99% of the time.

 

[Sonic Defender]

From my experience I didn't notice huge changes with burning-in headphones, but I made a small experiment some time age. I had a pair of new HD600 and didn't like it very much. I also owned back then older version of HD600 and it sounded to me warmer and softer (even on exactly the same earpads). So I pluged-in the new ones for few days (with some breaks without playing music) and I was checking how they sound several times for couple of minutes only. For me the new HD600 started to be warmer with little more low-end (after more than 100 hours) but the change wasn't night and day, still less enjoyable than my older pair. But having them both to compare allowed me to be quite sure about changes that were happening during this process. This approach also rules-out the "brain burn-in" part and pads adaptation.

You couldn't rule out expectation bias, even if you don't think you had an expectation of difference, you did. Why else would you even experiment right? You had to believe that a difference was possible. Now had it been done blind, multiple trials with careful level matching, and 9 out of 10 times you could pick them apart, you would have some evidence.

 

[Sonic Defender]

Of course one can do whatever one wants to experiment. I beleve that what Sonic Defender is trying to say is this. If you would like to see how a pair of headphones will sound to you in the long run, let your brain adjust to their dynamics without frequent can hopping.
He is right that it is the brain perception and not the mechanics that are changing. The effect of the softening of the diaphragm is far too slight to be perceptable. On the other hand, the collapsing of the pads has a perceptable effect, but that takes quite a while under normal circumstances.

Exactly what I was getting at, thanks.

 

[arturro13]

I think expatiation bias term is overused. I mean for example:

1) something is more expansive and sounds for somebody better - expectation based on higher price,
2) something is less expansive and sounds better - too much expectation against more $$$ gear,
3) we do some experiment/comparison:
- we hear a difference - we expected this
- we don't hear a difference - we expected this

This is like mantra and can be adjusted almost to any situation. I agree it exists, but it is just an simplification..

But yeah, confirming subjective opinion in blind test would be of course more reliable. However it wasn't so important for me to do so, changes were not impressive enough. But other time I asked a friend in different situation to perform for me a blind test. I wanted to confirm this way what I was hearing in other controversial area, because differences were more significant : ) And then in deed I scored 9 of 10.

To summarize - mechanical burn-in is something I didn't notice to have big impact, but subjectively I am not willing to rule-out it completely based on my experience.

And burn-in as far as I remember is not about diaphragm but mostly about suspension part to achieve its full range of work, to loosen up?

 

[arturro13]

Actually false.
There are also other factors to consider which apply to the same topic, for example:

• Volume perception is much lower early in the morning than in the evening.
This is due to your brain basically 'turning off' your ears while you sleep, and gradually adjusting to all the ambient noise during the day.

• Volume perception affects how loudly you turn the volume up on your equipment.
This in turn can directly affect the headphone's frequency response, as headphones do not produce perfectly identical frequency responses at different volumes.

If we're talking placebo - mechanical burn-in is the real placebo 99% of the time.

I agree about the perception factors.

I observed also with myself different hearing sensitivity depending on my health condition or tiredness.

 

[Metron]

It's a touchy subject, now, isn't it?

 

[Metron]

You couldn't rule out expectation bias, even if you don't think you had an expectation of difference, you did. Why else would you even experiment right? You had to believe that a difference was possible. Now had it been done blind, multiple trials with careful level matching, and 9 out of 10 times you could pick them apart, you would have some evidence.

The level of expectation bias depends on the person and whether one is amenable to self-deception. Expectation bias can cause some people to be deceiving themselves about the performance difference between certain audio gear and/or accessories. Nevertheless, it is possible to be honest with yourself without resorting to blind testing and admit it when there is no difference worth mentioning.

 

[Sonic Defender]

The level of expectation bias depends on the person and whether one is amenable to self-deception. Expectation bias can cause some people to be deceiving themselves about the performance difference between certain audio gear and/or accessories. Nevertheless, it is possible to be honest with yourself without resorting to blind testing and admit it when there is no difference worth mentioning.

Not true. It is impossible to have that level of self scrutiny. At least it is impossible to have any confidence that one is at that place. How would you know? Simply telling yourself, or wishing to be, or really feeling that you are being honest with yourself is no guarantee, hence why we eliminate that uncertainty as best we can with blind listening testing.

 

[Metron]

Not true. It is impossible to have that level of self scrutiny. At least it is impossible to have any confidence that one is at that place. How would you know? Simply telling yourself, or wishing to be, or really feeling that you are being honest with yourself is no guarantee, hence why we eliminate that uncertainty as best we can with blind listening testing.

The claim that many people have no issue with self-deception, especially on such a harmless matter, does not imply that it is impossible or even exceedingly difficult to do otherwise. This is not democracy. The brain's perceptual system is not 'incapable' of telling the difference, people are and they do it all the time. Blind testing is useful when there is a need to demonstrate something to other people, not to yourself, or if the difference is very subtle (personally, when I'm not sure that I hear a difference I err on the side of 'no difference').