[Audiofiler]

Nice post Joe. Excellent perspective and well put.  I concur with your views and would like to compliment you too on the organization of your rig in that room.  I bet that chair there is darn comfortable and content with its view, even with the blinds shut.

 

[robm321]

Joe, I also find myself not wanting to deal with the headache that goes along with getting speakers just right. Also, I sometimes find myself looking forward to the end of an album while listening to my speakers. I just have a hard time sitting in the "sweet spot" and sitting still for too long. As much as I enjoy the speaker experience and sound, I find myself turning to headphone more often. 
 
I have to admit a slight bit of jealousy when I looked at your system/chair. Please forgive 

 

[leesure]

Well said, Joe. While I maintain a speaker based system, I use it far less now that I've really gotten into good headphone sound. Another reason to add is that I doesn't impose my music onto everyone else in the house.

I do really enjoy the image and soundstage presented by my $2K Celestions driven by $5K of electronics, but 20 to 20, my kilobuck LCD-2's driven by just under $1K of ekectronics offer more detail and better tonality.

 

[Towert7]

It is funny, but I am the opposite.  I use my headphones for times when I really want to listen to the music, and use speakers for times when I just want ambient music while I do other things. 

 

[TheAttorney]

I also concur with Joe and some recent posters. I spent my early years with loudspeakers, then moved to headphones for practical reasons. Now with a house move on the way, I have the option of getting back to speakers.
 
But I'm not sure I can be bothered any more with speakers. All that faffing around with sweet spots and alignments and room reflections. I like the freedom of headphones and am completely OK their soundstage. I'll still take my beloved Sonus Fabers out from hibernation, but probably just use them uncritically for background music.

 

[alex_d15z6]

+1
100 percent agree with Joes post -for 37 years in audio hobby i did a long way in HIFI and High End and DIY and tweaking different kind of equipment connected to the speakers listening and feel tired of this endless process moving ,correction, replacement and room tweaking- and from day to day i became more and more directed to headphones listening direction only.
Well said Joe - we thinking the same direction. 
With respect.
Alex

 

[authistic]

Quote:

 I have a Soundlab M1 based system downstairs with Wolcott EL 34 amps retubed with matched Mullard xf2s with an Aesthetix Callisto Signature preamp with dual power supplies, Audionote Dac front end, Micro Seike TT, etc, etc, etc.

woow, could u post a pic pls? =)
 
greez

 

[jc9394]

Quote:

It is funny, but I am the opposite.  I use my headphones for times when I really want to listen to the music, and use speakers for times when I just want ambient music while I do other things. 

Same here, I usually turn on my speakers while I walk around the house or while cooking.  When I really want to listen to music, I walk into my office and turn on my headphone rig.  I don't even have a dedicated DAC in my speakers setup.

 

[BlackbeardBen]

Well, I can understand where you're coming from, even if I don't really agree with you.
 
You definitely don't need to spend any more on sources, a DAC, and pre-amp for speakers than you do for headphones...  Their function is exactly the same!  The only convincing reason I see to do anything different is preference for different form factors (computer sources are highly popular among head-fiers, yet music servers and PCs are still rare among stereo setups).  I'm not a tweaker, either - I think that's all a total waste of money.
 
Amps certainly can be far more expensive for speakers, but the used market is so ripe that I see the speaker amp market to be on par with the headphone amp market (or even ahead) when it comes to pricing and value.
 
In fact, my whole system cost less than a pair of HD 800s does; both bought used - yet in terms of performance it's in an entirely different (and far superior in every respect to my ears) league.  The speakers do have a similar sound signature to the HD 800, as well.
 
I understand the issues with transportability, setup and acoustics, as currently my speakers are languishing in half-storage while I'm overseas for six months.  I'm living with HD 600s, which are a huge, huge downgrade from my speakers - however mobile they are (which I do appreciate).
 
Regarding soundstage - yes, I know it doesn't often reflect what an actual performance is like, especially for any sort of amplified music or music played in a large venue.  But this is where I think recordings can exceed the sonic quality of live music, in fact.  It's an illusion; a new perspective that you can't always get with live music and often enriches the experience.  Kind of how telephoto and wide angle lenses allow photographers to capture real life in a way that we don't really see ourselves.
 
More than anything else, the depth of the soundstage with excellent speakers gets me - some headphones do a decent job at this, but the best I've heard (HD 800, T1, K701) still fall far short of what my modest-costing system can do.  Oh, and bass presence, of course...
 
I understand the whole sweet-spot thing, but I honestly hate being tethered by a cord more than being confined to the sweet spot - which certainly is no worse than just sitting in an easy chair.  Oh, and I hate how the headstage turns with you as you turn your head with headphones - it's one of those things that ruin the illusion for me.  In that respect, I feel like wearing headphones is far more confining.  Not to mention actually wearing something on my head...  I don't even like hats (except when the weather calls for them).  I admit that I do like to listen with headphones while lying down, although I don't like what that does to the headstage either (it feels like gravity has suddenly taken leave, as the stage is no longer in front of me, but rather above me...).
 
So while I enjoy the portability, privacy, and ability to easily try different sound signatures, I still find headphones to be lacking in the end in terms of overall enjoyment.  Headphones are the stop-gap for when I can't use my speakers.
 

 
Quote:

I wouldn't say exactly that.  I'm tired of speakers though.  I've been into high end audio (first planars and then a string of electrostats driven with tubes) for over 25 years.   And I'm  tired of the sit in the perfect sweet spot ritual for the best imaging and slaving over equipment set-up / isolation and room treatment to get the best out of them.  And the prices of really good speaker based rigs in the high end.  I have a Soundlab M1 based system downstairs with Wolcott EL 34 amps retubed with matched Mullard xf2s with an Aesthetix Callisto Signature preamp with dual power supplies, Audionote Dac front end, Micro Seike TT, etc, etc, etc.  The preamp alone cost about 80% of what my entire headphone rig costs.  Toss in my interconnects and speaker cables and those 3 items alone cost probably 75% more than the entire headphone rig.   I don't even listen to it any more.  Why?  Beyond the sweet spot listening ritual and the quest for isolation from room excitation and feedback, you invest a ton in a speaker rig and get a single sound.  Want to revoice it for different music?  Say hello to a new $10,000 amplifier or DAC commensurate with the quality of the rest of the rig.  Prices in that market have just gotten increasing ridiculous in the past 10 years.  The smallest tweak or upgrade costs thousands.  The 3 things I love about headphones in comparison?   The freedom from room interactions that degrade and alter the sound.  The ability to have multiple sonic options in terms of headphones and amps in a small space for a relatively small cost (compared to really good speaker based high end).  The ability to put the sweet spot on your head and move, turn, lay back and simply get lost in the music without degrading the sound with head movement relative to speaker position. 
 
What do you lose ?  The soundstage.  Frankly the soundstage is over-rated.  If you attend live performances you'll realize pretty quickly that the pin point soundstage that speakers put in your room is an artifact of miking and speaker placement you will never hear in a real hall with real musicians.  Sound propagates in a far different manner with a  lot less specificity of performer location and and far larger size in real life than the way stereos in rooms do and while it can be fun to look at the soundstage home audio reproduces - it's just not at all like real life.  In fact, one of the things I've found most frustrating over the years as high end speaker based audio has evolved from its hobbyist, music loving origins to the big(ger) business it is today is that the field has gotten lost in the hunt for the perfect sound stage and the pursuit of the holy grail of transparency.  I'v heard gear evolve from a warmer more musically accessible sound in the 80s to a thinner balanced sound with a soundstage you can measure with a micrometer obessed with "looking" at the soundstage with your ears and losing the whole point of the music being performed in the first place.  All at increasingly stratospheric prices.
 
So after starting with headphones back in the early 80s (the original Stax Lambdas driven with a Marantz amp linked to a Rega planar 3 / Moving coil front end) I'm back to headphones.   And I'm having a lot more fun and getting a lot more lost in the music with my multiple viable headphone/amp options than I have with speaker based audio in years.
 
Joe 
 
Quote:

Don't like speakers then, huh?

 

[Sanderman]

I understand where you're coming from.  And while you don't believe in tweaks, I found to my increasing dismay and frustration over the years that they make a huge impact on a highly resolving speaker based system.    Too many times I found a set of cones, an equipment base, a digital cable, or other seemingly subtle tweak that could take my speaker rig from sublime to irritating or, more likely, something in between.  I don't know if it's the phase relationships of the speakers acting on the room or feedback to the component combined with resonances in the power supply of any given component interacting with their equipment support, but I have found transparent speakers (Martin Logan CLSs, CLS2s, Sound Labs) easily capable of revealing such things.  In fact, so easily capable that such small changes would, in the long run, drive you nuts.  This song sounds best with this input tube and that dig cable.  Than kind of music sounds best with that speaker cable and that particular support base under the DAC.  It grew thoroughly maddening.  Sometimes, I suspect ignorance of the effects is indeed bliss.  But once you hear them there is no going back.  You can't choose to unhear them or ignore them.   And in the end it's all about coupling a speaker with a room.  And the fact of the matter is that domestic rooms in homes and apartments were never designed with even the slightest concern given to acoustics and coupling a collection of drivers in a speaker enclosure to them with any semblance of rational balance of reflectivity, acoustic symmetry, damping, bass reinforcement or  acoustic leakage into adjacent spaces whatsoever.  I always found putting an accomplished and resolving pair of speakers into the average domestic room a total acoustic crap shoot.
 
Joe
Quote:

Well, I can understand where you're coming from, even if I don't really agree with you.
 
You definitely don't need to spend any more on sources, a DAC, and pre-amp for speakers than you do for headphones...  Their function is exactly the same!  The only convincing reason I see to do anything different is preference for different form factors (computer sources are highly popular among head-fiers, yet music servers and PCs are still rare among stereo setups).  I'm not a tweaker, either - I think that's all a total waste of money.
 
Amps certainly can be far more expensive for speakers, but the used market is so ripe that I see the speaker amp market to be on par with the headphone amp market (or even ahead) when it comes to pricing and value.
 
In fact, my whole system cost less than a pair of HD 800s does; both bought used - yet in terms of performance it's in an entirely different (and far superior in every respect to my ears) league.  The speakers do have a similar sound signature to the HD 800, as well.
 
I understand the issues with transportability, setup and acoustics, as currently my speakers are languishing in half-storage while I'm overseas for six months.  I'm living with HD 600s, which are a huge, huge downgrade from my speakers - however mobile they are (which I do appreciate).
 
Regarding soundstage - yes, I know it doesn't often reflect what an actual performance is like, especially for any sort of amplified music or music played in a large venue.  But this is where I think recordings can exceed the sonic quality of live music, in fact.  It's an illusion; a new perspective that you can't always get with live music and often enriches the experience.  Kind of how telephoto and wide angle lenses allow photographers to capture real life in a way that we don't really see ourselves.
 
More than anything else, the depth of the soundstage with excellent speakers gets me - some headphones do a decent job at this, but the best I've heard (HD 800, T1, K701) still fall far short of what my modest-costing system can do.  Oh, and bass presence, of course...
 
I understand the whole sweet-spot thing, but I honestly hate being tethered by a cord more than being confined to the sweet spot - which certainly is no worse than just sitting in an easy chair.  Oh, and I hate how the headstage turns with you as you turn your head with headphones - it's one of those things that ruin the illusion for me.  In that respect, I feel like wearing headphones is far more confining.  Not to mention actually wearing something on my head...  I don't even like hats (except when the weather calls for them).  I admit that I do like to listen with headphones while lying down, although I don't like what that does to the headstage either (it feels like gravity has suddenly taken leave, as the stage is no longer in front of me, but rather above me...).
 
So while I enjoy the portability, privacy, and ability to easily try different sound signatures, I still find headphones to be lacking in the end in terms of overall enjoyment.  Headphones are the stop-gap for when I can't use my speakers.
 

 
Quote:

I wouldn't say exactly that.  I'm tired of speakers though.  I've been into high end audio (first planars and then a string of electrostats driven with tubes) for over 25 years.   And I'm  tired of the sit in the perfect sweet spot ritual for the best imaging and slaving over equipment set-up / isolation and room treatment to get the best out of them.  And the prices of really good speaker based rigs in the high end.  I have a Soundlab M1 based system downstairs with Wolcott EL 34 amps retubed with matched Mullard xf2s with an Aesthetix Callisto Signature preamp with dual power supplies, Audionote Dac front end, Micro Seike TT, etc, etc, etc.  The preamp alone cost about 80% of what my entire headphone rig costs.  Toss in my interconnects and speaker cables and those 3 items alone cost probably 75% more than the entire headphone rig.   I don't even listen to it any more.  Why?  Beyond the sweet spot listening ritual and the quest for isolation from room excitation and feedback, you invest a ton in a speaker rig and get a single sound.  Want to revoice it for different music?  Say hello to a new $10,000 amplifier or DAC commensurate with the quality of the rest of the rig.  Prices in that market have just gotten increasing ridiculous in the past 10 years.  The smallest tweak or upgrade costs thousands.  The 3 things I love about headphones in comparison?   The freedom from room interactions that degrade and alter the sound.  The ability to have multiple sonic options in terms of headphones and amps in a small space for a relatively small cost (compared to really good speaker based high end).  The ability to put the sweet spot on your head and move, turn, lay back and simply get lost in the music without degrading the sound with head movement relative to speaker position. 
 
What do you lose ?  The soundstage.  Frankly the soundstage is over-rated.  If you attend live performances you'll realize pretty quickly that the pin point soundstage that speakers put in your room is an artifact of miking and speaker placement you will never hear in a real hall with real musicians.  Sound propagates in a far different manner with a  lot less specificity of performer location and and far larger size in real life than the way stereos in rooms do and while it can be fun to look at the soundstage home audio reproduces - it's just not at all like real life.  In fact, one of the things I've found most frustrating over the years as high end speaker based audio has evolved from its hobbyist, music loving origins to the big(ger) business it is today is that the field has gotten lost in the hunt for the perfect sound stage and the pursuit of the holy grail of transparency.  I'v heard gear evolve from a warmer more musically accessible sound in the 80s to a thinner balanced sound with a soundstage you can measure with a micrometer obessed with "looking" at the soundstage with your ears and losing the whole point of the music being performed in the first place.  All at increasingly stratospheric prices.
 
So after starting with headphones back in the early 80s (the original Stax Lambdas driven with a Marantz amp linked to a Rega planar 3 / Moving coil front end) I'm back to headphones.   And I'm having a lot more fun and getting a lot more lost in the music with my multiple viable headphone/amp options than I have with speaker based audio in years.
 
Joe 
 
Quote:

Don't like speakers then, huh?

 

[BlackbeardBen]

Well, no amount of convincing that you try to do, short of blind testing me or someone else (that includes the possibility of tricking me - for example, lying about a cable change and saying that an equalizer was added making such-and-such changes instead) that results in a statistically significant identification of components is going to change my opinion that it's all in your head when changing those cables (digital, are you serious?), bases, and so on.
 
Even amplifiers I have my total doubts about - I couldn't hear any difference whatsoever when A/B'ing my uDAC and a Beyerdynamic A1 (while listening with my HD 600s), despite expecting to hear some deficiencies of the uDAC.   Same goes for the differences in speaker amps, at least as far as adequately powerful and flat response amps go.  Eventually I'd like to incorporate a high quality equalizer (whether digital or analog) to my system as well, to play around with it.
 
But you'll never believe that (you say the differences are maddening - I'll just say you're mad! 

), and without peer-reviewed evidence I'll never believe that such tweaks will even come close to making an audible difference.  Acoustics, yes, of course.  Speakers, yes.
 
Oh, and my main speakers (Infinity Renaissance 90) are most definitely highly, highly resolving.
 

 
Quote:

I understand where you're coming from.  And while you don't believe in tweaks, I found to my increasing dismay and frustration over the years that they make a huge impact on a highly resolving speaker based system.    Too many times I found a set of cones, an equipment base, a digital cable, or other seemingly subtle tweak that could take my speaker rig from sublime to irritating or, more likely, something in between.  I don't know if it's the phase relationships of the speakers acting on the room or feedback to the component combined with resonances in the power supply of any given component interacting with their equipment support, but I have found transparent speakers (Martin Logan CLSs, CLS2s, Sound Labs) easily capable of revealing such things.  In fact, so easily capable that such small changes would, in the long run, drive you nuts.  This song sounds best with this input tube and that dig cable.  Than kind of music sounds best with that speaker cable and that particular support base under the DAC.  It grew thoroughly maddening.  Sometimes, I suspect ignorance of the effects is indeed bliss.  But once you hear them there is no going back.  You can't choose to unhear them or ignore them.   And in the end it's all about coupling a speaker with a room.  And the fact of the matter is that domestic rooms in homes and apartments were never designed with even the slightest concern given to acoustics and coupling a collection of drivers in a speaker enclosure to them with any semblance of rational balance of reflectivity, acoustic symmetry, damping, bass reinforcement or  acoustic leakage into adjacent spaces whatsoever.  I always found putting an accomplished and resolving pair of speakers into the average domestic room a total acoustic crap shoot.
 
Joe
Quote:

Well, I can understand where you're coming from, even if I don't really agree with you.
 
You definitely don't need to spend any more on sources, a DAC, and pre-amp for speakers than you do for headphones...  Their function is exactly the same!  The only convincing reason I see to do anything different is preference for different form factors (computer sources are highly popular among head-fiers, yet music servers and PCs are still rare among stereo setups).  I'm not a tweaker, either - I think that's all a total waste of money.
 
Amps certainly can be far more expensive for speakers, but the used market is so ripe that I see the speaker amp market to be on par with the headphone amp market (or even ahead) when it comes to pricing and value.
 
In fact, my whole system cost less than a pair of HD 800s does; both bought used - yet in terms of performance it's in an entirely different (and far superior in every respect to my ears) league.  The speakers do have a similar sound signature to the HD 800, as well.
 
I understand the issues with transportability, setup and acoustics, as currently my speakers are languishing in half-storage while I'm overseas for six months.  I'm living with HD 600s, which are a huge, huge downgrade from my speakers - however mobile they are (which I do appreciate).
 
Regarding soundstage - yes, I know it doesn't often reflect what an actual performance is like, especially for any sort of amplified music or music played in a large venue.  But this is where I think recordings can exceed the sonic quality of live music, in fact.  It's an illusion; a new perspective that you can't always get with live music and often enriches the experience.  Kind of how telephoto and wide angle lenses allow photographers to capture real life in a way that we don't really see ourselves.
 
More than anything else, the depth of the soundstage with excellent speakers gets me - some headphones do a decent job at this, but the best I've heard (HD 800, T1, K701) still fall far short of what my modest-costing system can do.  Oh, and bass presence, of course...
 
I understand the whole sweet-spot thing, but I honestly hate being tethered by a cord more than being confined to the sweet spot - which certainly is no worse than just sitting in an easy chair.  Oh, and I hate how the headstage turns with you as you turn your head with headphones - it's one of those things that ruin the illusion for me.  In that respect, I feel like wearing headphones is far more confining.  Not to mention actually wearing something on my head...  I don't even like hats (except when the weather calls for them).  I admit that I do like to listen with headphones while lying down, although I don't like what that does to the headstage either (it feels like gravity has suddenly taken leave, as the stage is no longer in front of me, but rather above me...).
 
So while I enjoy the portability, privacy, and ability to easily try different sound signatures, I still find headphones to be lacking in the end in terms of overall enjoyment.  Headphones are the stop-gap for when I can't use my speakers.
 

 
Quote:

I wouldn't say exactly that.  I'm tired of speakers though.  I've been into high end audio (first planars and then a string of electrostats driven with tubes) for over 25 years.   And I'm  tired of the sit in the perfect sweet spot ritual for the best imaging and slaving over equipment set-up / isolation and room treatment to get the best out of them.  And the prices of really good speaker based rigs in the high end.  I have a Soundlab M1 based system downstairs with Wolcott EL 34 amps retubed with matched Mullard xf2s with an Aesthetix Callisto Signature preamp with dual power supplies, Audionote Dac front end, Micro Seike TT, etc, etc, etc.  The preamp alone cost about 80% of what my entire headphone rig costs.  Toss in my interconnects and speaker cables and those 3 items alone cost probably 75% more than the entire headphone rig.   I don't even listen to it any more.  Why?  Beyond the sweet spot listening ritual and the quest for isolation from room excitation and feedback, you invest a ton in a speaker rig and get a single sound.  Want to revoice it for different music?  Say hello to a new $10,000 amplifier or DAC commensurate with the quality of the rest of the rig.  Prices in that market have just gotten increasing ridiculous in the past 10 years.  The smallest tweak or upgrade costs thousands.  The 3 things I love about headphones in comparison?   The freedom from room interactions that degrade and alter the sound.  The ability to have multiple sonic options in terms of headphones and amps in a small space for a relatively small cost (compared to really good speaker based high end).  The ability to put the sweet spot on your head and move, turn, lay back and simply get lost in the music without degrading the sound with head movement relative to speaker position. 
 
What do you lose ?  The soundstage.  Frankly the soundstage is over-rated.  If you attend live performances you'll realize pretty quickly that the pin point soundstage that speakers put in your room is an artifact of miking and speaker placement you will never hear in a real hall with real musicians.  Sound propagates in a far different manner with a  lot less specificity of performer location and and far larger size in real life than the way stereos in rooms do and while it can be fun to look at the soundstage home audio reproduces - it's just not at all like real life.  In fact, one of the things I've found most frustrating over the years as high end speaker based audio has evolved from its hobbyist, music loving origins to the big(ger) business it is today is that the field has gotten lost in the hunt for the perfect sound stage and the pursuit of the holy grail of transparency.  I'v heard gear evolve from a warmer more musically accessible sound in the 80s to a thinner balanced sound with a soundstage you can measure with a micrometer obessed with "looking" at the soundstage with your ears and losing the whole point of the music being performed in the first place.  All at increasingly stratospheric prices.
 
So after starting with headphones back in the early 80s (the original Stax Lambdas driven with a Marantz amp linked to a Rega planar 3 / Moving coil front end) I'm back to headphones.   And I'm having a lot more fun and getting a lot more lost in the music with my multiple viable headphone/amp options than I have with speaker based audio in years.
 
Joe 
 
Quote:

Don't like speakers then, huh?

 

 

[Towert7]

Quote:

Well, no amount of convincing that you try to do, short of blind testing me or someone else (that includes the possibility of tricking me - for example, lying about a cable change and saying that an equalizer was added making such-and-such changes instead) that results in a statistically significant identification of components is going to change my opinion that it's all in your head when changing those cables (digital, are you serious?), bases, and so on.
 
Even amplifiers I have my total doubts about - I couldn't hear any difference whatsoever when A/B'ing my uDAC and a Beyerdynamic A1 (while listening with my HD 600s), despite expecting to hear some deficiencies of the uDAC.   Same goes for the differences in speaker amps, at least as far as adequately powerful and flat response amps go.  Eventually I'd like to incorporate a high quality equalizer (whether digital or analog) to my system as well, to play around with it.
 
But you'll never believe that (you say the differences are maddening - I'll just say you're mad! 

), and without peer-reviewed evidence I'll never believe that such tweaks will even come close to making an audible difference.  Acoustics, yes, of course.  Speakers, yes.
 
Oh, and my main speakers (Infinity Renaissance 90) are most definitely highly, highly resolving.
 

A good deal of skepticism is always a good thing, but there may actually be people who can hear differences in analog cables, etc.
Tough to say for sure.
 
Being a poor student, I'm forced to submit to the 'ignorance is bliss' mindset for now.

 

[leesure]

FWIW...I can absolutely hearvthe differences wrought by some cables. I got to the point that I could recognize the sonic signature of various brands (Kimber very bright, Audioquest neutral, Monster bassy). I considered them the final 'tone controls' to tweak the sonic signature. As to amplifiers, I'll just say that if you can't tell the difference between your Infinity's being driven by a Krell amp and by a Sony, then you need to get the wax out.

Just like most audio, the law of diminishing returns kicks in...that is, you can expect about a 10% improvement each time you double the investment. If you're not hearing at least that much, then don't spend more money.

To get close to the same tonal clarity and quality I get from my $2K headphone setup, I have over $6K in my speaker system. The imaging and soundstage is superior with the latter, but the musicality is better with the 'phones...and at 1/3 the price.

 

[Petyot]

Quote:

FWIW...I can absolutely hearvthe differences wrought by some cables. I got to the point that I could recognize the sonic signature of various brands (Kimber very bright, Audioquest neutral, Monster bassy). 

Maybe 6moons.com is looking for new reviewer ? You should apply... 

 

[Yikes]

Wrong thread to be discussing DBT, Cables and tweaks. Post pictures of your TICE Clock and then a comment or two might be appropriate, otherwise this is "Pictures of Your High End System" thread. I've heard the weirdest crap make fairly significant differences, so I stay quiet even when someone says their system sounds different on Odd numbered days.