Out Of Your Head - new virtual surround simulator

[crisnee]

Hi again Darin,
 
Just saw your new MC19 Wasapi instructions. You're fast. I will try them later and see what happens.
 
Thanks,
 
-Chris

 

[darinf]

  Yes listening and getting used to the sound seems like a good idea. However, the problem is the 2 minute per setting allotted time. I can hardly get setup to listen (get the volume level right and myself situated) and the time's up. I think I'd need at least ten minutes to sit back and relax and let myself get into the sound.
 
Anyway, thanks for your quick responses.
 
Chris

The two minute time resets every time you switch presets. You don't have to wait for the timer to expire.
 
So you could start playing a song, get your levels set, etc. Then switch presets back and forth quickly, and restart your song. That will give you two minutes of listening. Then before the two minutes are up, just quickly switch presets back and forth and you will get another two minutes, etc.
 
Sorry it has to be this way, but as much as I want to believe that I could just have people pay on the honor system, that's not the reality. 

 

[crisnee]

  The two minute time resets every time you switch presets. You don't have to wait for the timer to expire.
 
So you could start playing a song, get your levels set, etc. Then switch presets back and forth quickly, and restart your song. That will give you two minutes of listening. Then before the two minutes are up, just quickly switch presets back and forth and you will get another two minutes, etc.
 
Sorry it has to be this way, but as much as I want to believe that I could just have people pay on the honor system, that's not the reality. 

I understand how it works, it just doesn't make for relaxed listening which I think is key to learning to hear OOYH correctly, as you put it.
 
By the way, I don't think people would be satisfied to steal a product that they had to switch presets every 10 minutes; or maybe a very few would, but they wouldn't have been buyers anyway, so that wouldn't be a loss to you.
 
I think it might be more important for your overall business to get off to a quick start than to worry about a few people stealing your software. Once you get a bad reputation because your software is too hard to work with or to get accustomed to, the news will get out via the audio forums and folks will become skeptical and will likely not give you much of a shot. And if you live around the forums you know how that goes.
 
I think I'm probably whistling in the wind here, but I would seriously suggest you either lengthen the listening time per preset or make a couple of them 30 minutes long and then have them reset to a short time, or have your trial download be unlimited but only good for a month or so. Anything to make the trial period feel like you're using the real program, especially considering it has that "getting used to the sound" factor.
 
I'm skeptical that I'll get used to the sound and I probably won't try very long with these 2 minute presets to overcome that, and I've been forever wishing someone would come up with a program like this that I could afford. If I feel that way there are probably others out there that feel like I do. 
 
Why am I skeptical? 1.Well I've never heard anyone say that they had to get used to the Smyth Realizer, they were always instantly amazed. 2. Maybe you guys who developed it are just hearing what you want to hear--audio can be strange that way. 3. All other headphone programs I've tried (other than the crossfeed) have had the same kind of phaser type artifacts yours appears to have.
 
Please don't feel that I'm being disrespectful; I'm just telling you what I honestly think because I actually care about the OOYH and want it to be great--for selfish purposes only, and because If I think these things others are probably thinking similar thoughts.
 
-Chris

 

[darinf]

  I understand how it works, it just doesn't make for relaxed listening which I think is key to learning to hear OOYH correctly, as you put it.
 
By the way, I don't think people would be satisfied to steal a product that they had to switch presets every 10 minutes; or maybe a very few would, but they wouldn't have been buyers anyway, so that wouldn't be a loss to you.
 
I think it might be more important for your overall business to get off to a quick start than to worry about a few people stealing your software. Once you get a bad reputation because your software is too hard to work with or to get accustomed to, the news will get out via the audio forums and folks will become skeptical and will likely not give you much of a shot. And if you live around the forums you know how that goes.
 
I think I'm probably whistling in the wind here, but I would seriously suggest you either lengthen the listening time per preset or make a couple of them 30 minutes long and then have them reset to a short time, or have your trial download be unlimited but only good for a month or so. Anything to make the trial period feel like you're using the real program, especially considering it has that "getting used to the sound" factor.
 
I'm skeptical that I'll get used to the sound and I probably won't try very long with these 2 minute presets to overcome that, and I've been forever wishing someone would come up with a program like this that I could afford. If I feel that way there are probably others out there that feel like I do. 
 
Why am I skeptical? 1.Well I've never heard anyone say that they had to get used to the Smyth Realizer, they were always instantly amazed. 2. Maybe you guys who developed it are just hearing what you want to hear--audio can be strange that way. 3. All other headphone programs I've tried (other than the crossfeed) have had the same kind of phaser type artifacts yours appears to have.
 
Please don't feel that I'm being disrespectful; I'm just telling you what I honestly think because I actually care about the OOYH and want it to be great--for selfish purposes only, and because If I think these things others are probably thinking similar thoughts.
 
-Chris

Hi Chris,
 
Thanks for the great feedback. I really appreciate it.
 
There are a lot of technical reasons why I could not offer a time-limited (i.e. 30 day) trial. It has more to do with the licensing scheme and not requiring an internet connection for the licensing validation, etc and the strength of the copy protection. I will consider lengthening the timer.
 
As far as the Realiser goes, I think the biggest issue is that I have never heard of anyone demoing the Realiser or buying one without doing a measurement in a room with speakers. In that case, when you are in the same room as the measurements are done, then your brain gets the full effect. If you are hearing the real room and comparing with the Realiser, it's simple for your brain to figure out. I am confident if I did the same thing with my software, your brain would have no problem "hearing" the room since you can compare with the real thing.
 
With the trial of Out Of Your Head, the users don't have a frame of reference to start with. It's a little abstract to know what you are hearing.
 
Again thanks for the great feedback. It is all very helpful to me in the long run. 
 
-Darin

 

[hekeli]

Originally Posted by crisnee /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
All other headphone programs I've tried (other than the crossfeed) have had the same kind of phaser type artifacts yours appears to have.

 
Large part of the effect is depending on your ear anatomy. If it's not compatible, there's not much you can do, highs can sound funny like you say, speaker positions vary etc. Dolby Headphone etc use a generic HRTF profile which match "most people decendly". OOYH currently has one, Darins. So it's hit and miss. DSpeaker Headspeaker is probably still the only thing on the market offering dozens of HRTF profiles to try to match on. Realiser is the only one customing your ears exactly.

 

[Chodi]

   
Large part of the effect is depending on your ear anatomy. If it's not compatible, there's not much you can do, highs can sound funny like you say, speaker positions vary etc. Dolby Headphone etc use a generic HRTF profile which match "most people decendly". OOYH currently has one, Darins. So it's hit and miss. DSpeaker Headspeaker is probably still the only thing on the market offering dozens of HRTF profiles to try to match on. Realiser is the only one customing your ears exactly.

Actually TB Isone is  fully adjustable for the HRTF of your individual ears.

 

[darinf]

  Actually TB Isone is  fully adjustable for the HRTF of your individual ears.

In TB Isone, you can adjust the "head size" and "ear size". I don't really consider that "fully adjustable" since a true accurate HRTF takes into account the actual shape of the ear and the pinnae, etc. It's more than just the size of your head and the size of your ears.
 
The thing about products that calculate and synthesis things like reflections and distances and head size, etc. is that they are computer generated. They are not measured. Sure it gives you a lot of adjustment capability, but it isn't based on anything real. It's computer generated.
 
It's like the analogy of computer generated images vs. actual photos/video. You have endless possibilities for CG since you don't have to have anything "real". You can generate an image of anything you can imagine and adjust it however you want. That's great to have that kind of control. But with a photo or video, you have to actually have that scene or objects in reality. And, just like computer graphics vs. real photos or video, you can tell the difference. They can be very close, but ultimately to me, I can spot CG.
 
The same holds true for me when I listen to synthesized or computer generated effects like TB Isone or Dolby Headphone, etc. The localization might be there to some extent, but it still sounds artificial to me. Whereas to me, Out Of Your Head, sounds like a real room and real speakers. I know others may disagree, but that's what I hear. 
 
TB Isone and other effects are not going to be able to recreate the sound of specific speakers and specific rooms. It can generate the sound of a certain sized rooms and adjust other parameters, but it's not based on reality. If you were in a room with speakers, you could "tune" TB Isone to try to get close to the sound of the actual room and speakers, but with Out Of Your Head I can "record" that actual speakers and room.
 
Just like there are lots of great CG animated films and live action films, they both have their merits and limitations. But no ones is saying your have to like one over the other or that one is better than the other. It's a matter of taste. They're just two different methods, just like electronic music vs. acoustic music.

 

[pompon]

The sound is like a pirate movie recorded in a cinema. The voices seem far and echo.

In fact for the ambiance, I like the effect.

I think it's give what you telling ... out of your head effect.

 

[FullCircle]

The sound is like a pirate movie recorded in a cinema. The voices seem far and echo.

In fact for the ambiance, I like the effect.

I think it's give what you telling ... out of your head effect.

I live in Thailand where such pirated movies are commonly found, and none of the pirated movies created by a camera set up in the theatre sound as good as Darin's set up

Just my opinion,

Wizard

 

[crisnee]

   
Large part of the effect is depending on your ear anatomy. If it's not compatible, there's not much you can do, highs can sound funny like you say, speaker positions vary etc. Dolby Headphone etc use a generic HRTF profile which match "most people decendly". OOYH currently has one, Darins. So it's hit and miss. DSpeaker Headspeaker is probably still the only thing on the market offering dozens of HRTF profiles to try to match on. Realiser is the only one customing your ears exactly.

Well here's something new (to me at least) and interesting.
 
Today I got out a NOS dac that I've been intending to sell (Scott Nixon Tube Dac 2.2), just to try something different, and boy did I get something different.
 
In the other setup I'd been trying out I'd become quite discouraged, I could not even get the levels of the speaker setups near the level of the bypass, never mind get good sound from OOYH. The bypass sound was much lower than the preset's level.
 
With this new setup, the bypass sound was actually louder. That I could deal with, because I could turn it down to match the preset's levels. Also, more significantly, the speaker choices sounded much better, at times. The weird thing is the "at times." Everything seemed to affect the sound. Like what you might ask. Well the dac, but also the headphones and the recording.
 
I need to experiment with this much more before I form any definite conclusions but here are some for instances, for starters.
 
I was listening to one track and it came across ear scorchingly bright (Audio Technica 900s), switched to Fostex T50Rp--slightly modded, and the sound was almost dull.
 
Now granted the AT's are a bit on the bright side, but nothing like this, and the Fostex are not dull. Besides only that one track came across like that. Other tracks sounded fine on the AT's. 
 
I also have the Sennheiser Px100s. Light over the ear phones, inexpensive but very good for their price. Some tracks sounded horrible on them, others fine.
 
Nothing ever sounds horrible on any of my headphones, not everything sounds great, but when it sounds horrible it sounds horrible on all, because the recording sucks.
 
So what I'm really saying (and maybe this has to do with ear shape vs. headphone cup shape) but the variation of quality of sound that has come through my phones when coming from the OOYH driver is immense, from very good, where indeed the sound opens up and the phasing effects and hi freq effects are very light/possibly non existent to godawful. And this variation can come from the same preset depending on the recording and/or headphones. It's really bewildering.
 
I will have to try to study this a lot more--if I can muster the patience, to see if I can discern a pattern. I shall report back.
 
By the way, in earlier posts several people complained about the lack of bass. There was no lack of bass in anything I was listening to. Even the AT's which are known to appear to be a bit bass shy, were not.
 
-Chris

 

[kalston]

This is very interesting to me. I'm a long time Isone user (no other software solution I've tried comes close IMO) but this looks a bit different and has the potential to be better. I have no complaints with Isone though (never had distortion or recordings that sounded "bad" with it) but I'll be sure to check this out. And who knows, as expensive as it may be (for me anyway) birthday and Christmas are coming soon
 
Edit : ok my first feedback.
 
It's very interesting but I don't find it "better" than Isone (and the free Isone Surround) so far. It's good, no doubt (and I have no distortion except some presets that seem to be broken for me) and I like the fact that it works as a virtual soundcard because that means you can use it with absolutely everything including games and films. However for the latter two there is a noticeable delay which makes it unusable for me (well I can adjust the audio/video sync through software so that's ok but no such possibility with games). 
 
This is quite interesting since I had actually done the same before by using VAC + VSThost (i.e. a virtual soundcard with a DSP effect applied to all sounds, in my case it was Isone) but the result was pretty similar: too much delay. If I reduced the buffers I could make the delay unnoticeable but then there were stutters which is of course much worse. My PC is pretty solid (win 7 64, i5 2500k@4.2ghz, 8gb of RAM, SSD for the OS, absolutely nothing running in the background and lots of system services etc removed).
 
And regarding the pricing... well I don't mind the base price but having to buy every single preset is really over the top in my opinion. Also the trial limitation of 2 minutes makes it really hard to appreciate the whole thing, as has been said before. 

 

[ShadowVlican]

i haven't tried the demo, but is the delay that noticeable?

 

[darinf]

Typically the delay in most systems is about 400ms, so yes it is noticeable for movies. You have to adjust audio sync to watch movies.

For gaming, it's not really usable. We are working on a gaming version that may sacrifice a little quality for speed.

 

[paradoxper]

  You folks who have tried it - what headphones are you using? I imagine that choice makes a big difference towards the final result.
 
Also, forgot to mention that an OSX version is in the works, then iOS and Android after that. Assuming we like the sound, those would be really useful for watching movies on tablets. 

Hurry up, Darin! 

 
 
 
Looking forward to trying this out on PC for the meantime.

 

[crisnee]

Edit : ok my first feedback.
 
It's very interesting but I don't find it "better" than Isone (and the free Isone Surround) so far. It's good, no doubt (and I have no distortion except some presets that seem to be broken for me) and I like the fact that it works as a virtual soundcard because that means you can use it with absolutely everything including games and films. However for the latter two there is a noticeable delay which makes it unusable for me (well I can adjust the audio/video sync through software so that's ok but no such possibility with games). 
 
 

I'm curious; how does Isone differ from OOYH, or what does it do to the typical headphone sound, might be a better question. I've heard several people here mention it and am just wondering about it.
 
Chris