[preproman]

 

[darinf]

Some people were still having installation problems on the Mac. We also identified a few other bugs. So if you are on Mac, please download and install the latest Mac trial version from our website. You can just install the new version over the old one.

 

[Crman]

Darin, sorry to ask you this, but I read about the new Atmos technology for headphones (that use biaural technology) and I started to think if you have tried it and what are the differences between that and OOYH. I know that right now you only have a 7.1 preset, but as you told me in a previous post that in theory you can add as much speakers as you want (if the hardware can process them) I was curious if OOYH can be a better solution than Dolby's, because right now it is.

 

[darinf]

  Darin, sorry to ask you this, but I read about the new Atmos technology for headphones (that use biaural technology) and I started to think if you have tried it and what are the differences between that and OOYH. I know that right now you only have a 7.1 preset, but as you told me in a previous post that in theory you can add as much speakers as you want (if the hardware can process them) I was curious if OOYH can be a better solution than Dolby's, because right now it is.

Hi Crman,
 
Thanks for posting.
 
As far as I know, no one has heard Dolby Atmos for headphones. Maybe someone else can point me to a demo or impressions. There's no way to know how it compares to the old Dolby Headphone or Out Of Your Head.
 
I also don't know how far away Dolby Atmos for headphones is from being a shipping product or released software for say the Kindle Fire. (The Kindle Fire is the first device I've seen mentioned that may have Dolby Atmos for headphones.) And then we would assume that Amazon would have to start streaming Dolby Atmos content.
 
For Out Of Your Head, our technology is scalable to as many speakers in any position as needed given there is enough processing power for the number of channels. But the concept and quality of the sound and the localization of the sound would be the same for all speakers. So it's definitely possible for us to do an Atmos speaker configuration preset with 12 or more speakers.
 
But, Out Of Your Head does not do any of the multichannel audio decoding. We rely on the media player to do that. So we would also have to wait until the media player apps support Dolby Atmos. The media player would have to decode and process the audio and then send discrete audio for each speaker to Out Of Your Head. This is probably the part that will take the longest in terms of implementation. I don't know when there will be a software Dolby Atmos processing solution.
 
Like any new technology trickling down to the consumer, there usually is a lot of hype and press about it initially, but it can be a different story in terms of the wait until you can actually go out and buy and use the technology. Sure, you can go out and buy Dolby Atmos gear now for your home theater, but you pay "early adopter" prices and what are you even going to watch? You would end up upconverting regular 7.1 or 5.1 content to give you pseudo Atmos (i.e. the new Dolby Surround technology.) Then you would also probably be upsampling all your HD content to 4K too!
 
I have no doubt it's coming and I hope to have a version of Out Of Your Head that supports Dolby Atmos when it's really available.

 

[Crman]

  Hi Crman,
 
Thanks for posting.
 
As far as I know, no one has heard Dolby Atmos for headphones. Maybe someone else can point me to a demo or impressions. There's no way to know how it compares to the old Dolby Headphone or Out Of Your Head.
 
I also don't know how far away Dolby Atmos for headphones is from being a shipping product or released software for say the Kindle Fire. (The Kindle Fire is the first device I've seen mentioned that may have Dolby Atmos for headphones.) And then we would assume that Amazon would have to start streaming Dolby Atmos content.
 
For Out Of Your Head, our technology is scalable to as many speakers in any position as needed given there is enough processing power for the number of channels. But the concept and quality of the sound and the localization of the sound would be the same for all speakers. So it's definitely possible for us to do an Atmos speaker configuration preset with 12 or more speakers.
 
But, Out Of Your Head does not do any of the multichannel audio decoding. We rely on the media player to do that. So we would also have to wait until the media player apps support Dolby Atmos. The media player would have to decode and process the audio and then send discrete audio for each speaker to Out Of Your Head. This is probably the part that will take the longest in terms of implementation. I don't know when there will be a software Dolby Atmos processing solution.
 
Like any new technology trickling down to the consumer, there usually is a lot of hype and press about it initially, but it can be a different story in terms of the wait until you can actually go out and buy and use the technology. Sure, you can go out and buy Dolby Atmos gear now for your home theater, but you pay "early adopter" prices and what are you even going to watch? You would end up upconverting regular 7.1 or 5.1 content to give you pseudo Atmos (i.e. the new Dolby Surround technology.) Then you would also probably be upsampling all your HD content to 4K too!
 
I have no doubt it's coming and I hope to have a version of Out Of Your Head that supports Dolby Atmos when it's really available.

Darin thanks for answering me so fast. The truth is that the reviews about the first blu-ray with Atmos (the Transformers movie) all say that seeing the movie with Atmos is a completely different experience, so I'm very curious about the technology. Until now I'm very happy with your technology and as I don't want to fill my walls with wires, and I like to be always in the best position for audio (which I can with your software, regardless of where I am) I'm going to wait until you have a preset for Dolby, and perhaps latter for Auro 3D too. That way I can enjoy both of them without having to change the place of the speakers. 
 
There is one other thing I would like to comment to you. The other day I was commenting your technology with a friend and I told him to go to OOYH webpage and try to listen the pre-rendered videos you have there, and he was a little bit disappointed with the technology because he had the perception that the speakers weren't placed in the right place. After that I told him to download the free trial and try other presets and there were some he liked very much. I'm telling you this because with me happened the same thing with the pre-rendered videos, so I thought that maybe you could put in the OOYH page one or two videos with other presets (because all are with the home theater) because I'm sure that a lot of people hear first the demos before downloading it, and they can be having the wrong idea about the software. 

 

[magiccabbage]

I might try this later on. I presume the link from page 1 still works? 

 

[darinf]

  Darin thanks for answering me so fast. The truth is that the reviews about the first blu-ray with Atmos (the Transformers movie) all say that seeing the movie with Atmos is a completely different experience, so I'm very curious about the technology. Until now I'm very happy with your technology and as I don't want to fill my walls with wires, and I like to be always in the best position for audio (which I can with your software, regardless of where I am) I'm going to wait until you have a preset for Dolby, and perhaps latter for Auro 3D too. That way I can enjoy both of them without having to change the place of the speakers. 
 
There is one other thing I would like to comment to you. The other day I was commenting your technology with a friend and I told him to go to OOYH webpage and try to listen the pre-rendered videos you have there, and he was a little bit disappointed with the technology because he had the perception that the speakers weren't placed in the right place. After that I told him to download the free trial and try other presets and there were some he liked very much. I'm telling you this because with me happened the same thing with the pre-rendered videos, so I thought that maybe you could put in the OOYH page one or two videos with other presets (because all are with the home theater) because I'm sure that a lot of people hear first the demos before downloading it, and they can be having the wrong idea about the software. 

FYI, I was referring to reviews or impressions specifically about "Dolby Atmos for Headphones" technology, not just Dolby Atmos at home. Yes, Dolby Atmos in theaters and now in homes has definitely been reviewed and many people have posted impressions, etc. But translating that experience into a binaural headphone experience is a whole different matter. It's one thing to mount additional speakers in a ceiling and hook it up to an Atmos processor. It's an entirely different thing to recreate the sound of a 7.4.1 speaker system in headphones only. Let's also not forget about DTS Headphone X. DTS has demoed their system many times and for two years at CES, but I have yet to see any products with the technology.
 
My goal with Out Of Your Head was to make something available NOW that works with all existing content. I mean we're talking about Dolby Atmos using 12 speakers yet how much content can you actually buy that even has 7.1 audio? (According to this page, 6.62% of all Blu-Ray releases are 7.1) I mean even the Gravity release on Blu-Ray is only 5.1! My point is really that new technology takes time but in the meantime, I wanted people to be able to enjoy what they have now.
 
Thanks for the feedback on the pre-rendered demos here: http://fongaudio.com/demo. I will endeavor to make more demo files using different presets so there is a better chance that some of the demos will work better for other people who aren't "compatible" with the current demo files.
 
Thanks again for all your feedback!

 

[darinf]

  I might try this later on. I presume the link from page 1 still works? 

Yes, the link in the first post is just a link to the Darin Fong Audio website. There you can find more information about Out Of Your Head and download a free trial.

 

[magiccabbage]

  Yes, the link in the first post is just a link to the Darin Fong Audio website. There you can find more information about Out Of Your Head and download a free trial.

cool, thanks

 

[Crman]

  FYI, I was referring to reviews or impressions specifically about "Dolby Atmos for Headphones" technology, not just Dolby Atmos at home. Yes, Dolby Atmos in theaters and now in homes has definitely been reviewed and many people have posted impressions, etc. But translating that experience into a binaural headphone experience is a whole different matter. It's one thing to mount additional speakers in a ceiling and hook it up to an Atmos processor. It's an entirely different thing to recreate the sound of a 7.4.1 speaker system in headphones only. Let's also not forget about DTS Headphone X. DTS has demoed their system many times and for two years at CES, but I have yet to see any products with the technology.
 
My goal with Out Of Your Head was to make something available NOW that works with all existing content. I mean we're talking about Dolby Atmos using 12 speakers yet how much content can you actually buy that even has 7.1 audio? (According to this page, 6.62% of all Blu-Ray releases are 7.1) I mean even the Gravity release on Blu-Ray is only 5.1! My point is really that new technology takes time but in the meantime, I wanted people to be able to enjoy what they have now.
 
Thanks for the feedback on the pre-rendered demos here: http://fongaudio.com/demo. I will endeavor to make more demo files using different presets so there is a better chance that some of the demos will work better for other people who aren't "compatible" with the current demo files.
 
Thanks again for all your feedback!

I understood that you were talking about Dolby technology for headphones, but I think that the surround simulation in your software is so good that I feel the need to compare it with real Atmos with physical speakers and not with other headphones technology. In my opinion OOYH is the best software that I have tried until now so for that reason even if other options appear, of course I will try them if I have the chance, but I'm going to wait until there is a preset in OOYH compatible with Atmos (even if it takes several years to appear because I know it needs a player that is compatible with it) because I think your technology is very good. Until that happens I will continue to enjoy listening my 5.1 and 7.1 surround movies with the awesome surround that your software provides and spreading the word among my friends.

 

[Paradigm]

I don't even know where start in regards to addressing my take on this DSP software. I have spent the last 5 hours listening to various tracks in my audio collection ranging from some of the best recorded/mastered albums, to middle ground content and all the way to the usual "HOTMASTED" aggressive in your face over compressed tracks.

Oh and for the record, my gear in evaluating OOYH is as follows:
HD650 (excellent mid-range, bassy, vield/dark),
Titaniam HD + external DAC
gilmore Lite amp
foobar 2000 - WASAPI - OFYH


I have found that the overall end result is highly dependent on many factors. These include:

Genre tied in with the Mixing/Mastering Quality
Gear(headphones)
Individual's unique hearing profile

Basically this DSP represents to me possibilities that I have not ever experienced before with any other HTRF software other than maybe IStone. It's as if this could possibility represent a major milestone in the path to achieving acceptable 2 channel Speaker reproduction on headsets without the severe loss of audio fidelity with the unwanted addition of gimmicky, thin excessive reverberation, hollow presentation. As accurate as headsets are, they lack that natural wide open soundstage that only speakers can reproduce. We are essentially listening to audio that was mixed and mastered with speakers in mind for playback. I am willing to compromise a little if the end result becomes a more enjoyable and immersive experience, which I personally feel OFYH accomplishes.

My main gripe is the near impossibility in determining the one best preset that is all around balanced. The reason for this is simply there is not one. Sound familiar? it should this is no different when one is purchasing a speaker. I have yet to comes across any speaker in the $1000-10000 range that excels at all genres of music. Usually when I purchase speakers I always have to have 2 different sets one for classical and jazz the other for Rock, Pop etc..... Basically you have your critical speaker, and then you have your colored forgiving one. I feel it's incredibly important, especially today to have a speaker that colors the sound and add's a fun exciting factor. The reason for this is the result of most records being very poorly Mixed and MASTERED.

With OFYH, for example when I play "The World's Greatest Audiophile Vocal Recordings" track #1 Spanish Harlem 24bit-96 and use Gen Elec Preset. I get a crystal clear and neutral presentation. Bare in mind this perception is based off of using HD650's.
Now If I play an average ever day of the mill mastered album it becomes to bright and fatiguing. In that case I just switch over to a different preset such as Magical speaks or Zen which tend to be much for forgiving and bingo problem resolved. I love the ability to switch presets that best suit whatever particular recording I have.

My favorite presets with HD650's are as follows:
#1 Genelec Recording Studio ( all around good)
#2 Italian Speakers (music + Movies)
#3 Sasha (certain Classical albums)
#4 AZen Maestro ( movies)

Currently I have the Genelec preset paid for and plan to purchase another 4 in the next coming days.

----------------------- MOVIES----------------------------

Dolbyheadphone is dead to me. Also listened to DTS headhone X or whatever it's called and was not impressed at all.

I recently purchased this software primary for music, however the 5.1-7.1 simulation is far superior to DolbyHeadphone. I am currently using MPC-HC + MadVR+reclock with a -450ms latency added for proper syncing. My only issue is that as of right now you need a powerful headphone amp to in order to hear the sound at a decent level. My Gilmore Lite, paired with my HD650 has to be turned up 88%(beyond that and distortion kicks in, AMP is at it's limits) just to be able to match the loudness when I was using DH. The reason for this is because when I select a preset I have to turn it down -10 to 11 dB in order to prevent clipping during very complex and loud passages in a movie. It seems I need to upgrade my amp to something with a little more power ( any suggestions). I think darin said in the future if possible he will try to work out or reduce those clipping issues somewhat, can't remember but Darin if you could please further comment on this issue, I would be grateful. As of right now you have to reduce volume in the OFYH Control panel by -10db to avoid clipping in movies and in my case the overall volume is acceptable but not as loud as I would have liked.

Overall, Darin I must say I am a huge supporter of your creation here and I am very excited to hear that you are working on a gaming version with lower latency. This would be spectacular.
By the way, Kudos for making the correct decision by choosing the higher bit-rate vs higher sampling.

One more thing I should mention to those contemplating purchasing OFYH. Software support is TOP NOTCH. Darin is very diligent in both answering questions and accommodating any software related issues that might creep up. Clearly this man stands 100% behind his product.

 

[darinf]

 

Spoiler: Click to expand the post

I don't even know where start in regards to addressing my take on this DSP software. I have spent the last 5 hours listening to various tracks in my audio collection ranging from some of the best recorded/mastered albums, to middle ground content and all the way to the usual "HOTMASTED" aggressive in your face over compressed tracks.

Oh and for the record, my gear in evaluating OOYH is as follows:
HD650 (excellent mid-range, bassy, vield/dark),
Titaniam HD + external DAC
gilmore Lite amp
foobar 2000 - WASAPI - OFYH


I have found that the overall end result is highly dependent on many factors. These include:

Genre tied in with the Mixing/Mastering Quality
Gear(headphones)
Individual's unique hearing profile

Basically this DSP represents to me possibilities that I have not ever experienced before with any other HTRF software other than maybe IStone. It's as if this could possibility represent a major milestone in the path to achieving acceptable 2 channel Speaker reproduction on headsets without the severe loss of audio fidelity with the unwanted addition of gimmicky, thin excessive reverberation, hollow presentation. As accurate as headsets are, they lack that natural wide open soundstage that only speakers can reproduce. We are essentially listening to audio that was mixed and mastered with speakers in mind for playback. I am willing to compromise a little if the end result becomes a more enjoyable and immersive experience, which I personally feel OFYH accomplishes.

My main gripe is the near impossibility in determining the one best preset that is all around balanced. The reason for this is simply there is not one. Sound familiar? it should this is no different when one is purchasing a speaker. I have yet to comes across any speaker in the $1000-10000 range that excels at all genres of music. Usually when I purchase speakers I always have to have 2 different sets one for classical and jazz the other for Rock, Pop etc..... Basically you have your critical speaker, and then you have your colored forgiving one. I feel it's incredibly important, especially today to have a speaker that colors the sound and add's a fun exciting factor. The reason for this is the result of most records being very poorly Mixed and MASTERED.

With OFYH, for example when I play "The World's Greatest Audiophile Vocal Recordings" track #1 Spanish Harlem 24bit-96 and use Gen Elec Preset. I get a crystal clear and neutral presentation. Bare in mind this perception is based off of using HD650's.
Now If I play an average ever day of the mill mastered album it becomes to bright and fatiguing. In that case I just switch over to a different preset such as Magical speaks or Zen which tend to be much for forgiving and bingo problem resolved. I love the ability to switch presets that best suit whatever particular recording I have.

My favorite presets with HD650's are as follows:
#1 Genelec Recording Studio ( all around good)
#2 Italian Speakers (music + Movies)
#3 Sasha (certain Classical albums)
#4 AZen Maestro ( movies)

Currently I have the Genelec preset paid for and plan to purchase another 4 in the next coming days.

---

MOVIES

---

Dolbyheadphone is dead to me. Also listened to DTS headhone X or whatever it's called and was not impressed at all.

I recently purchased this software primary for music, however the 5.1-7.1 simulation is far superior to DolbyHeadphone. I am currently using MPC-HC + MadVR+reclock with a -450ms latency added for proper syncing. My only issue is that as of right now you need a powerful headphone amp to in order to hear the sound at a decent level. My Gilmore Lite, paired with my HD650 has to be turned up 88%(beyond that and distortion kicks in, AMP is at it's limits) just to be able to match the loudness when I was using DH. The reason for this is because when I select a preset I have to turn it down -10 to 11 dB in order to prevent clipping during very complex and loud passages in a movie. It seems I need to upgrade my amp to something with a little more power ( any suggestions). I think darin said in the future if possible he will try to work out or reduce those clipping issues somewhat, can't remember but Darin if you could please further comment on this issue, I would be grateful. As of right now you have to reduce volume in the OFYH Control panel by -10db to avoid clipping in movies and in my case the overall volume is acceptable but not as loud as I would have liked.

Overall, Darin I must say I am a huge supporter of your creation here and I am very excited to hear that you are working on a gaming version with lower latency. This would be spectacular.
By the way, Kudos for making the correct decision by choosing the higher bit-rate vs higher sampling.

One more thing I should mention to those contemplating purchasing OFYH. Software support is TOP NOTCH. Darin is very diligent in both answering questions and accommodating any software related issues that might creep up. Clearly this man stands 100% behind his product.

 

Hi @Paradigm,
Thank you for taking the time to try Out Of Your Head and for the comprehensive review. It's always great feedback to hear from users.
 
With regard to your main "gripe" about needing different speakers for different music:
I agree, but unfortunately most people don't have the means to have different gear for different recordings/genres especially with regard to speakers. So I believe this is the first time there has been a relatively affordable alternative to be able to listen to different speakers for different recordings. So for $25, you can have a new set of speakers to use. (I know it's not like owning the "real thing", but it's better than having no options at all. Did I mention that each set of speakers is $25?

)
 
It's also interesting because Out Of Your Head really the only way to even switch speakers quickly so you can compare the sound "side by side" so to speak. When I first started developing Out Of Your Head, it was amazing to me how different all the speakers and rooms sounded. Before, I would listen to one set of speakers at a friend's house or a dealer and then weeks later, go somewhere else and hear a different set up. For the most part, they all sounded pretty good. But when you can switch from one set of speakers to another with a click of the mouse, the differences are SO much bigger! No "golden ears" required. Many people who first hear a demo of Out Of Your Head generally react the same way. It's very enlightening. I wish we could do the same thing for headphones and headphone gear...
 
Regarding the clipping issues in Out Of Your Head, here's something I posted before:
 
Quote:

  Sorry about the clipping issues. Everybody's system varies in terms of clipping, but when I adjusted the default levels of each of the presets down to a level where clipping is less frequent, people complained regularly that the levels were too low. So when I raised the levels, people complained about clipping. So rather than having the levels too low and no way to increase them beyond 100%, I figured people could easily adjust the levels down instead.
 
I have mentioned before that it's tricky since Out Of Your Head is taking up to 8 channels of audio and converting them down to two channels. During loud passages, this can be a huge range in terms of levels since the software is essentially summing the sound of 8 speakers into each ear.

Ultimately I have some ideas on how to address this issue, but I really don't want to add any volume compression into the processing. I think recordings already have plenty of that to begin with. The dynamic range required to go from a quiet passage from two speakers to a loud action movie with 8 speakers is significant. Although our 32bit processing has a lot of dynamic range, to avoid clipping with 8 speakers at full volume, the quiet passages with two speakers are going to be at a lower level than most people are used to and that their amps/DACs can deal with.
 
Even though it's not ideal, at least you can adjust the levels in Out Of Your Head depending on the content you are playing back.
 
Thank you again for all your support and help in making Out Of Your Head even better moving forward.
 
-Darin

 

[olegausany]

That's exactly why I suggested to have volume level profiles so that you can easily switch between them depending on the recording you have

 

[Paradigm]

I would concur with the implementation of preset options as a highly needed feature so that when you listen to music or movies the ability and ease for the user to quickly change volume presets would make a much smoother hassle free transition.

 

[Paradigm]

It's also interesting because Out Of Your Head really the only way to even switch speakers quickly so you can compare the sound "side by side" so to speak. When I first started developing Out Of Your Head, it was amazing to me how different all the speakers and rooms sounded. Before, I would listen to one set of speakers at a friend's house or a dealer and then weeks later, go somewhere else and hear a different set up. For the most part, they all sounded pretty good. But when you can switch from one set of speakers to another with a click of the mouse, the differences are SO much bigger! No "golden ears" required. Many people who first hear a demo of Out Of Your Head generally react the same way. It's very enlightening. I wish we could do the same thing for headphones and headphone gear.

Darin you hit nail on the head. Most people when doing AB comparisons amongst speakers or headphones rarely are able to do so with the luxury of having many different models to switch between instantaneously. Sure everything sounds good on quality gear, and most A/B comparrsions on on in different room setups to against he variables change. Using headphones (a closed controlled chamber) then having the ability to not only change speaker setups but audio sources as well, really is paramount in being able to better determine what ones personal preferences are. Furthermore it also illustrates to the listener the importance of there being a strict standard that should be adhered to when it comes to mastering as evident by the result with different audio sources and that ultimately unless we all use the same speakers used in the studio or i guess headphones results and personal preferences with widely vary.

It seems to me that the best type of headphones to be used in giving off the most accurate representation for each preset would be a neutral and rather fast headphone, such as Planar magnet's and electrostatic. I maybe wrong(and please correct me if I am) but I think the dynamic driver based headset's being cone shaped result in the various frequency ranges leaving the the surface of the driver at different times which probably heavy alter's the shape/sound of the original unique nuances encompassed in each of the sampled preset when they were created. I'm guessing that HD650's being on the more bassy side, having a more "slower" darker sound and not as fast acting in attack and decay as the eltro and planer would not be the most ideal headsets. It's no wonder why I prefer the Genelec's since they have a flat response and could be perceived as bright, however those are the very same characteristics I looked for when selecting my amp to pair with them(Syngery) Gilmore Lite. I know you mentioned one time that you had used Stax headphones when these presets were being constructed. a few of the presets(not all) sounded too bassy for me. I would bet If I used a different pair of headset's such has a hi-fi man etc...that my opinion would be highly susceptible to changing.

There was one preset that I didn't care for in general, yet this particular bass heavy track i played on it absolutely blew me away by how the preset dealt with the low frequency. The bass was tight, articulate, punchy with excellent bass definition and low end extension. It's mid to highs left much to be desired. But to listen to bass reproduced on my headsets that even outclassed the standard untouched bitmtached recording without any DSP was an absolute delight. If allowed I would love to upload an audacity processed 20 sec clip of the untouched track vs the one with the DSP so people here could see the difference.