[maverickronin]

Quote:

 
Feedback is cheating, plain and simple. Their measurements neither mean or prove anything.
 
So feedback fasifies measurements and sounds shrill, goodness gracious!

Could you please explain why feedback is "cheating".

 

[SanjiWatsuki]

Quote:

So I'm telling you that opamps measurements don't mean jack, that these 3 opamps sound drastically different. You tell me that the measurements prove that they all sound the same, and yet you haven't heard any of them...how is that useful to anything? Let me repeat it for you once more, because maybe I didn't make myself clear from the get go: "Feedback circuits were invented because of their ability to correct for everything – by this it is easy to achieve 0.0005% THD figures". They will always all measure the same, OTOH it's quite astounding to read ppl saying "hey fellas, I've measured a lot of opamps and they all measured the same, and they all sounded the same to me too!!! placebo!! snake oil!! attack!!!". If OPA1641 and OPA602 sound the same to you, I would also advise to switch hobbies....you're wasting your time.

Have you heard the audiophile USB cables for your external DAC? It cleaned up the sound amazingly and widened the soundstage significantly. Everything sounds like a Stax now with significantly quicker decay and more air. Oh, you haven't tried a $300 USB cable? What right have you to say there isn't a noticeable improvement?
Do you run your computer from a high-end power cable? I paid $150 for mine, but it made my computer so much faster and more immune to viruses. I've noticed a massive improvement. You can't always just trust the measurements that show that it doesn't make a difference, I noticed one. If you can't notice it, you should just stop using computers, seriously. It's not the hobby for you. Other people have tried it as well and noticed similar improvements to their computer's speed and security! <Link>
I switched my watches yesterday for a Rolex. Oh my God, it keeps track of time so much better than my old watch! I used to always be late to meetings, but now I'm always on time. You can't just rely on measurements that show that they tell the exact same time, it's made a significant difference in my life. I'm not the only one, too -- look at what these other people have said. <Link>
 
From my perspective, this is the exact same argument. You need to put forth evidence for what you're saying rather than just repeating your point on feedback over and over and over. 
 
I've ripped into your cited sources' credibility and you haven't refuted any of my points. You instead like to latch onto single sentences I make and attack them or pull them out of context while ignoring the rest of my argument. 
 
In fact, your sources actually count against you on both counts! The one citing the study about THD+N and IMD being useless can be interpreted to say that op amps don't make a significant difference, because it is talking about distortion linearity and op amps all tend to distort at the harmonics. Thus, they all have very similar linearity in their distortion, even though this won't show in a THD+N, which is just the summation and averaging of that distortion. The post you used to suggest that discrete is better than op amps never implies that and, in fact, says that op amps are "very perfect" and have higher performance than discrete! 
 
Because science, knowing the science behind the action means that you can see when something doesn't make sense. Because ABX testing can weed out things that don't have differences. If you can find the measurements behind the secret sauce, measurements that are not THD+N (because, admittedly, THD doesn't tell you that much), I will believe you full-heartedly, but every source you have cited, except for your friend, has only hurt your argument. From what I can tell, you're not reading my posts and you're also not reading your sources.

 

[nick_charles]

Quote:

The feedback mechanism that is built into opamps renders their measurements meaningless, so tell me...if we can't trust measurements, what else can we trust apart from our good ole ears?
 
 
1. You can always measure the device in-circuit, i.e have two opamps in a whatever and measure the final analog outputs of the two different circuits - this being closer to what you hear
2. It isn't just your ears, without blind testing you can be biased by numerous non auditory factors
 

 

 

[anetode]

I'm not sure of the politics of posting this. Nonetheless, Nwavguy's "Op Amps: Myths & Facts" and "Op Amp Measurements" (google them) make for a good read and dispel the majority of leeperry's anecdotal pseudoscience.

 

[tmars78]

Lee Perry is always trying to prove op-amps sound different, and has NEVER shown any real evidence that they do. Every time he puts forth an argument, someone shreds it, much like what is going on here. I will give him points for being persistent though. And of course the 5532 always sounds bad to him, its what known as expectation bias, or experimenter's bias.. He believes they sound bad, so they sound bad. 
 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expectation_bias
 
 
 

 

[maverickronin]

Somehow I forgot about this...
 

 
I love that thread...

 

[mikeaj]

Quote:

You can always measure the device in-circuit, i.e have two opamps in a whatever and measure the final analog outputs of the two different circuits - this being closer to what you hear

 
This is what I was getting at.  Isn't the performance of the device in-circuit what you're interested in?  If the circuit happens to have an op amp with feedback, that's what you're listening to and examining (and measuring), right?
 
I'm very skeptical of manufacturers claiming they're getting the performance listed on the spec sheet for their products, just because they used a particular DAC chip or op amp or whatnot that has such listed specifications, but I don't think that's what you're talking about.  Or is it?

 

[leeperry]

 

I'm not sure of the politics of posting this. Nonetheless, Nwavguy's "Op Amps: Myths & Facts" and "Op Amp Measurements" (google them) make for a good read and dispel the majority of leeperry's anecdotal pseudoscience.

So much nonsense on the same blog deserves an award(balanced headphones amping is snake oil, all opamps sound the same, all volume attenuators sound the same, and it goes on and on), this guy is good! He might even be (one of) the best I've read, so kudos to him! I hope he gets good money from his hard work coz he truly deserves it.
 

Lee Perry is always trying to prove op-amps sound different, and has NEVER shown any real evidence that they do. Every time he puts forth an argument, someone shreds it, much like what is going on here. I will give him points for being persistent though. And of course the 5532 always sounds bad to him, its what known as expectation bias, or experimenter's bias.. He believes they sound bad, so they sound bad. 
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expectation_bias

Alright, another member of  team "all opamps sound the same" I presume? I believe you own a shiny STX, but I guess you never bothered swapping its cheap opamps for better parts? So you're basically talking about gear you have never heard, it would be like a blind guy discussing on a forum about colorimetry.
 

without blind testing you can be biased by numerous non auditory factors

Nick, please do your homework and stop relying on biased measurements of feedback driven equipment that are utterly meaningless as previously explained. The diff between opamps is night and day when you compare say AD797 and LT1028, calling it "placebo" is nothing more than a proof of ignorance. This could be of some assistance: http://www.head-fi.org/t/397691/audio-gd-discrete-op-amps-reviewed-opa-earth-opa-moon-opa-sun-v-2
 

 
Have you heard the audiophile USB cables for your external DAC? [..]
 
From my perspective, this is the exact same argument.

Great! Thanks for passing by, this was a treat really.
 

 

5532 is meant to look good on the paper and smart manufacturers save large amounts of money by making ppl believe that they buy high end gear based on bogus measurements....when their music really goes through low-end jellybean IC's. The output stage is what colors the sound the most, so you'll only be as strong as your weakest link. At least some manufacturers such as Resonessence use AD797, which is one of the "less worse" opamps in many ppl's opinion(including mine)...I wonder why they didn't use 5532 and/or 4562 in their Invicta DAC

 
Luckily, the ppl who buy 5532'ish gear don't seem to have ever heard anything better so everybody wins: customer's happy and the manufacturer's too, obviously

 
I could bother going through google for hours and explain you how feedback is bad for ya, but this sounds like a waste of my time =/

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

I could bother going through google for hours and explain you how feedback is bad for ya, but this sounds like a waste of my time =/

 
Can you give me some names or search terms to get me started?  Is there someone out there who makes a particularly good case for this?

 

[mikeaj]

Quote:

 
I could bother going through google for hours and explain you how feedback is bad for ya, but this sounds like a waste of my time =/

[boldface added]

This statement has got to be a goldmine for entertaining interpretation, particularly if you don't restrict "feedback" to the electrical or systems theory sense, but I'm not quite in the mood for digging today.  Anybody want to go for it?

 

[SanjiWatsuki]

If all you have is stubbornness and avoid addressing any of my points whatsoever and fail to see the parallels I was making, I'm not sure what to say. I addressed your sources with more depth than you see to have put into them, I addressed your points and asked for clarification on others that I never received, and I made metaphors to try and explain my standpoint, but you just ignore everything to attack single statements I make out of context. That's just trolling to stir up a fire, you're not even trying to make an argument anymore.
 
Quote:

Great! Thanks for passing by, this was a treat really.

 

 

[Br777]

this is what leeperry does, over and over and over.. thread after thread. 
 
yawn...

 

[Head Injury]

Guys, why humor him? He's never made a reasonable argument, ever. Nor will he listen to any opposition. It's just a troll thread, always is with him.

 

[nick_charles]

one last attempt

 
Quote:

Nick, please do your homework and stop relying on biased measurements of feedback driven equipment that are utterly meaningless as previously explained. The diff between opamps is night and day when you compare say AD797 and LT1028[1], calling it "placebo" [2] is nothing more than a proof of ignorance. This could be of some assistance: http://www.head-fi.org/t/397691/audio-gd-discrete-op-amps-reviewed-opa-earth-opa-moon-opa-sun-v-2[3]
 
1. Then if it is that obvious it will easily survive a decent DBT
2. Show me anywhere in this thread where I have used that word, I am very careful about using that word
3. Not really, it is a big subjectivist discussion unsupported by empirical unbiased listening tests

 

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

Guys, why humor him? He's never made a reasonable argument, ever. Nor will he listen to any opposition. It's just a troll thread, always is with him.

He isn't really the point.  I'm not expecting any answers besides "I can hear it when I know what I'm listening too" but the questions are still worth asking.  These arguments usually go like this:
 

 
At first glance it looks useless because no one actively participating in this thread is likely to have their minds changed because of it but this thread is still useful because there's a record of it.  Some people are lurking right now and others will read it in the future.  If a person who's new to this subject and thus doesn't have any strong preconceptions about it comes across this thread they'll be able to judge for themselves and given that leeperry's arguments consist of flat assertions I think its more likely than not that they'll lean to our side and maybe save a little money along the way by avoiding snake oil.