[thoppa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonci /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do you know which was produced first, the Xonar series or the SE200? Just want to know, who invented the EMI shield for audio cards..

I believe the Onkyo card w/o shield was 1st, STX next, and the ST is the latest - and greatest ? . There is a special edition Onkyo with a shield - a limited edition - but it came out about the same time as the STX.

About the shields, I don't get too hung up on this. I often run my ST without its shield on when I'm doing mods and listening for changes. The only exception to this is when I have LME49720MA or NA op amps. They pick up pulses from the wireless router's bursts if the card is within about 50cm of the router. I dunno why but they seem to be rf sensitive. Apparently, the HA (metal can) To-99 aren't but I still haven't got round to testing these.

As pointed out above, it's extremely hard, if not impossible, to hear noise around the -100dB mark, and to be honest, how often do you just sit and listen to -100dB background noise ? Most recordings have more noise than this. The irony is that classical music has some of the 'noisiest' recordings and yet contains a lot of almost-silent passages. Listen to thrash metal and it's hard to tell when the noise starts/stops right ?

EDIT - oops - this is dumb, "So what did you buy ? My money's on the ST....just cos the Onkyo is rarer...." got you confuse with the OP, sorry.

 

[thoppa]

I didn't try KS - just went straight for ASIO - it might be worth giving that a go sometime.

I got the Onkyo partly for audio-card-lust reasons and because the Via drivers are supposed to be Linux compatible and I want to build a 100% silent music player - use an Atom board with passive cooling, pci slot and a low power consumption, and an SSD so no HD noise either. I figured I could stream the music files through a wi-fi/lan connection. We'll see.

I dunno why they have two xo's - one for the reciever circuit and another for the dsp/transmitter ? I should look into this. Onkyo say they especially chose low ppm xo's for the best performance - it's stuff like this that makes Asus seem a bit hap-hazard by comparison, yet Asus are quick to claim 'audiophile' and Onkyo are far more modest. Taiwan vs Japan in a nutshell.

I got a eval board for Ti's SRC4392 a while back but I'm stuck with the programming code. Anyway, the board has four xo's - two 22.etc and two 24.etc Mhz so I guess one day I'll actually find out !

Quote:

Originally Posted by leeperry /img/forum/go_quote.gif yep, the Onkyo has KS...so that's cool. I think the problem w/ the Asus is that they only have a 24MHz clock...so jitter occurs when you want a 22kHz multiple. the Envy24 DSP requires both a 22 and a 24MHz clocks in its PCB design, jitter is way lower. and yes, all those new cards are more agressive than the Onkyo/Prodigy. I don't like an agressive sound w/ grinding trebles...I want it smooth and laid back

 

[thoppa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX /img/forum/go_quote.gif How did the cap modswork out for you? Ah, dual 8599's driving a 8620 buffer. Nice. I want to add a Onkyo to my collection but have yet to get around to it.

Hi,

I've used these Vishay MKP caps in various projects and found them to be fast and neutral. They are 3.3nF as opposed to the original smt 2.7nF, so the bandwidth goes down from -3db at 80Khz to -3dB at 60Khz. The change was subtle but the high end treble on albums like Madonna - Confessions on a Dance Floor is more natural. For a lot of music, there's no appreciable difference, but for the albums with wild crescendoes, rapid high hat, heavy cymbals etc, it is a little sweeter/smoother. It's another very minor improvement to be honest.

But it means I switched back to AD8599 - and I might even give the LME49720 a go too. Both can drive the treble presence up at times. I also really like the OPA2107 for the I/V. I guess these are old news. A bit like saying, hey, NE5532s are pretty good !

There's not much left to change on the ST now - just need to play with output caps/bypass caps on the RCA section now !

If you don't have an Onkyo, don't sweat it - I keep telling myself to buy more music and less gear...

Just as an aside, I'm getting pretty blummin upset with modern recordings. What's with all the over-saturated volumes ? It's like they are trying to create a compressed tape player from the 70's or something. Gah. Sorry, just needed to let that out.

 

[ROBSCIX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thoppa /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi, I've used these Vishay MKP caps in various projects and found them to be fast and neutral. They are 3.3nF as opposed to the original smt 2.7nF, so the bandwidth goes down from -3db at 80Khz to -3dB at 60Khz. The change was subtle but the high end treble on albums like Madonna - Confessions on a Dance Floor is more natural. For a lot of music, there's no appreciable difference, but for the albums with wild crescendoes, rapid high hat, heavy cymbals etc, it is a little sweeter/smoother. It's another very minor improvement to be honest. But it means I switched back to AD8599 - and I might even give the LME49720 a go too. Both can drive the treble presence up at times. I also really like the OPA2107 for the I/V. I guess these are old news. A bit like saying, hey, NE5532s are pretty good ! There's not much left to change on the ST now - just need to play with output caps/bypass caps on the RCA section now ! If you don't have an Onkyo, don't sweat it - I keep telling myself to buy more music and less gear... Just as an aside, I'm getting pretty blummin upset with modern recordings. What's with all the over-saturated volumes ? It's like they are trying to create a compressed tape player from the 70's or something. Gah. Sorry, just needed to let that out.

Maybe give the dual LME49710HA a go also, they are better from many opinions over the 49720HA's but like any other opamp is a preference.
I hear you the over compressed and nasty limiting on modern CD's sounds pretty bad on some.
The 2107's are very good and many have not tried them as they can be pricey to some and in many locations.
The compression also lowers the dynamic range. I would prefer the dynamic range then clipped off compression and limiting.
I have moved from the ST(X) series and I have been using something new for about 6 months. Add those to my reference collection and move on...
This is why I have been thinking of checking out the Onkyo series also.
My music collection is pretty extensive right now and I just added another 2.5 TB to my storage array

I moved away from MP3 long ago and now just stick with the lossless.

 

[mojave]

Thoppa, I have not yet purchased a card, but plan to do so soon. I have both of these on my list. I listen to music about 95% of the time, but want a 7.1 card because I use my HTPC for movies, too. How is the bass management on the Onkyo? Does it support 2.1? From looking at a connection picture, the 7.1 channel breakout cable includes both front channels, too. Do you have to use the fronts on the breakout cable or can you use the RCA's with the surround channels?

 

[thoppa]

The Onkyo uses ne5532 op amps for all its channels which I guess explains the warmth. Unlike the L/R output, the other channels use smt components on the underside. I don't often listen to multi-channel audio so i couldn't say for sure about the Onkyo's other channels. I've got some DVD-audio discs like Snow Patrol but I'm still more into stereo.For me, I never actually listen to the surround speakers anyway - my focus is on centre and L/R.

Here are some pics to illustrate.

So if you want the best from all channels I'd pick the ST and its extension card. But if, as you say, your focus is mainly on L/R, then the choice is much harder. Very hard to call in fact. Do you like modding your cards ? Prefer warmth or extra clarity ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojave /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm looking for a 7.1 card with 95% of the use for two channel audio. I had planned to get the Essence ST, but I want a card that supports 176.4 kHz. How is the 7.1 out of the Onkyo? Do you still use the RCA's for the mains and the breakout cable for the surrounds? Are the drivers in English?

 

[ROBSCIX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thoppa /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Onkyo uses ne5532 op amps for all its channels which I guess explains the warmth. Unlike the L/R output, the other channels use smt components on the underside. I don't often listen to multi-channel audio so i couldn't say for sure about the Onkyo's other channels. I've got some DVD-audio discs like Snow Patrol but I'm still more into stereo.For me, I never actually listen to the surround speakers anyway - my focus is on centre and L/R. Here are some pics to illustrate. So if you want the best from all channels I'd pick the ST and its extension card. But if, as you say, your focus is mainly on L/R, then the choice is much harder. Very hard to call in fact. Do you like modding your cards ? Prefer warmth or extra clarity ?

Yes, the 5532 are one on the best know generic opamps out there and that have a sort of soothing warm type of tubey sound.
@Mohjave, I agree with Thoppa though, if your going for just a stereo source, there is many great cards out there and it makes it even more difficult if you can change the signature with opamp mods.

@thoppa, I am getting more into the surround audio for movies, been messing with Dolby TrueHD and DTS-MA..etc. Stereo for music but I like surround for movies, gaming..

 

[thoppa]

Here are the two low-ppm xo's on the Onkyo. Interesting frequencies.

 

[yeah]

In the end I got the Onkyo SE200PCI-LTD because its more accessible to me than the Asus Essense ST

 

[thoppa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX /img/forum/go_quote.gif @thoppa, I am getting more into the surround audio for movies, been messing with Dolby TrueHD and DTS-MA..etc. Stereo for music but I like surround for movies, gaming..

Oh yeah, I love surround for movies ! One of my friends watched Gladiator and she squealed ( yeah, really ) when she heard the arrows whoosh over her head and onto the screen. I'll never forget that....

My surround is pretty limited though - just rear speakers. I've seen people with multi-directional speakers all around them but I've never listened to this kind of thing. One day....

 

[thoppa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yeah /img/forum/go_quote.gif In the end I got the Onkyo SE200PCI-LTD because its more accessible to me than the Asus Essense ST

Pleased ? Anything you'd like to change ? LTD is the one with the shield right ?

 

[leeperry]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thoppa /img/forum/go_quote.gif I didn't try KS - just went straight for ASIO - it might be worth giving that a go sometime. I got the Onkyo partly for audio-card-lust reasons and because the Via drivers are supposed to be Linux compatible and I want to build a 100% silent music player - use an Atom board with passive cooling, pci slot and a low power consumption, and an SSD so no HD noise either. I figured I could stream the music files through a wi-fi/lan connection. We'll see. I dunno why they have two xo's - one for the reciever circuit and another for the dsp/transmitter ? I should look into this. Onkyo say they especially chose low ppm xo's for the best performance - it's stuff like this that makes Asus seem a bit hap-hazard by comparison, yet Asus are quick to claim 'audiophile' and Onkyo are far more modest. Taiwan vs Japan in a nutshell. I got a eval board for Ti's SRC4392 a while back but I'm stuck with the programming code. Anyway, the board has four xo's - two 22.etc and two 24.etc Mhz so I guess one day I'll actually find out !

I have the confidential datasheet of the Via Envy24HT DSP if you wanna have a look.

It is my understanding that soundcards with 2 clocks(22 and 49) do so in order to kill jitter....24/22 is no good for roundings.

it's actually mandatory for implementing the Envy24 DSP, it does require 2 clocks.

You will agree that listening to the STX after listening to the ST is a terrible experience...the stereo image is mushy and plain terrible, nothing I've ever experienced on the Prodigy HD2.

and the HD2 Advance with some discrete op-amps sounds very soft and laid back...all I've heard from those CMI8788 based cards was electric sounding/agressive, the complete opposite of what I'm looking for

yep, EMI shields are utter bs...xbitlabs ran RMAA tests with and without the Asus D2 cover, they were identical...they said that the PCB itself is shielded and all the cover does is make n00bs happy and overheat the IC's

Asus is clueless when it comes to audiophile territory IMHO(and same goes for C-Media w/ their crappy fixed sample rate drivers

), they go for the specs! but the human brain wasn't meant to listen to pure sine waves.

and BTW, the VIA generic drivers don't support 88 and 176KHz natively...but again, only a handful of DVD-A's are 88.2kHz..

 

[yeah]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thoppa /img/forum/go_quote.gif Pleased ? Anything you'd like to change ?

Yeah I would love to change my speakers LOL.
I am looking at Adam A7 or Dynaudio BM5A if my wallet permits.

What do you all think?

 

[mojave]

Maybe I should just stick with my current card. I have an X-Fi Elite Pro that has all the features I need. I've modded it with LM4562 opamps for all channels. I also have a Blackgate 2200uF 16V power capacitor that I still haven't installed.

I've read that the newer cards have an improvement in sound quality. I also thought it would be fun to try something new.

 

[thoppa]

Oh man yes ! PLEASE ! How confidential is it ? Any plots to deafen/kill Denon employees ?

Do you think it is the CMI vs Via chip that makes the difference in sound ? Anything to support this ?

I've got a couple of DVD-As that are 88.2 - Daniel Powter is one I think - but most 88.2 are SACD which doesn't have a bit rate but a DSD stream of bits. In theory, DSD should be better but tbh I can't hear a difference. I also can't tell when the 88.2 has been upsampled to 96 or just bypassed (using AD1896 ASRC with Tent labs xo) so I think it wouldn't matter that much, unless of course, 88.2 just won't play at all. I could hear that.