[thoppa]

Hi,

Yeah, some sort of filtering would be good but it's gonna be very hard to have any strong effect cos the noise is in the board, not the supply. I still have that pci cable riser so one day maybe I'll hack that up......for sure, at some point when I have nothing else to do, I'll look at the noise across the 2200uF Nichicon on the soundcard and try some other caps to reduce this as much as possible. However, previous attempts to do this with other supplies and boards have taught me that it won't actually make much difference - switching noise is a real pita to remove - but some Vishay MKP1837 0.1uF to 1nF will damp it a little. Besides, these op amps have fantastic cmrr and psrr so it's highly debatable if I would hear the difference even if I could measure it.

I wanna start on the Teradak X2 i2s to an AMB Y2 as a dac for my laptop. I just started building the Y2 so I'm keen to get that done and see if the WM8741 sounds better than the 8740....

 

[headfinoob]

Argh..., just lost my post: here is a re-dux.

Quote:

If you want to smooth any ripple for this board, four Nichicon HD or Panasonic FM 2000F 25V caps together with four Solen MKP caps - but get the Solens in decades = 100uF, 10uF, 1uF, 0.1uF.

Do you mean get either four Nichicons or four Panasonics each at 2000uF for a total of 8000uF? I couldn't seem to find any Solen 25V MKPs, the lowest MKPs I saw were 250V and quite expensive. The Os Cons 47uF 25V are available for cheap on Ebay.

I'm on the fence with the power supply issue, because a Power-One supply may provide clean power and may not require a passive filter. The Enermax ATX PSU has a small sinusoidal ripple and could probably be migitated greatly by a passive filter. I'm also assuming there are linear supplies that are relatively low-cost that have good ripple/noise characteristics and don't require modding (*cough* sigma11 *cough*.) I plan on figuring this out tonight in terms of cost and convenience so that I can get a unit ordered so that it is here in a few days. I think I'll settle for the Enermax ATX PSU and just build a passive filter in the future. Here is the Enermax noise screenshot below- not too bad, eh?

I find that Cat5 and Cat6 both provide good stability at long distance. I've literally used hundreds of feet of cable for some lower bandwidth access points without trouble. Plus you can just add a network switch to repeat the signal. Also, one can set up routers and use them as clients so that all your computers just use the ethernet interface and all the wireless work is done by the routers. In that way, you can still have wireless but you can get the unit well away from the computer.
In fact, I'm kindof picky because I won't even plug in a DSL or cable modem to my system in case of lightning or a surge on the phone or cable cords. I just use routers that are bridged, so if I get a bad surge, my computer is only connected to the electrical outlet. I use a surge suppressor (replaced every year or two) and a line conditioner and a UPS. The new audio computer won't get the UPS, partly because its pointless and partly because they can add a bit of noise. My "server" computer with the raid array gets the UPS though.

I wish I could get 120Mbps over wireless. Wireless G at 54Mbps is really only about 5Mbps full-duplex. I did some testing... I can get 15Mbps full-duplex with good high-power routers bridged with decent antennas through a wall. I think the most I got over an N laptop client and N router was 8Mbps full-duplex. Regardless, you'll be perfectly fine for streaming DVDs (less than 6Mbps Average half-duplex.)

I think I've only been momentarily shocked by 120V AC a few times. I don't work on curcuits much. Once I accidentally electrified my door when I ran an extension cord outside. The door was metal and I actually measured 120V AC on the doorknob. You couldn't notice when you had your shoes on, but if you were sock-footed, you get a healthy jolt!

 

[thoppa]

Hi,

The large caps will help to smooth the ripple. I'd get about 8-10,000uF of Nichicon HD if you can. The Solens will speed up the response of the capacitor bank and reduce some of the noise; you are right that they only come in high voltage - as do most MKP. The Sanyos will improve the performance of the cap bank at high frequencies.

Given the noise on the board, I think most good quality psus with the above caps will do fine. I'd get linear rather than smps if you can but it's debatable whether you'd hear much if any difference.

It's interesting about the cat cable - I guess these systems have strong line drivers to maintain the voltage over such lengths ?

One of my friends won't use a surge suppressor because he says it affects current delivery. I pointed out that most of the current is stored in the toroid and caps but he won't have any of it. Each to their own eh ? I prefer to use isolation transformers....

I just finished making the y2 dac - sounds okay and getting better - it's still burning in I guess....

Quote:

Originally Posted by headfinoob /img/forum/go_quote.gif Argh..., just lost my post: here is a re-dux. Do you mean get either four Nichicons or four Panasonics each at 2000uF for a total of 8000uF? I couldn't seem to find any Solen 25V MKPs, the lowest MKPs I saw were 250V and quite expensive. The Os Cons 47uF 25V are available for cheap on Ebay. I'm on the fence with the power supply issue, because a Power-One supply may provide clean power and may not require a passive filter. The Enermax ATX PSU has a small sinusoidal ripple and could probably be migitated greatly by a passive filter. I'm also assuming there are linear supplies that are relatively low-cost that have good ripple/noise characteristics and don't require modding (*cough* sigma11 *cough*.) I plan on figuring this out tonight in terms of cost and convenience so that I can get a unit ordered so that it is here in a few days. I think I'll settle for the Enermax ATX PSU and just build a passive filter in the future. Here is the Enermax noise screenshot below- not too bad, eh? I find that Cat5 and Cat6 both provide good stability at long distance. I've literally used hundreds of feet of cable for some lower bandwidth access points without trouble. Plus you can just add a network switch to repeat the signal. Also, one can set up routers and use them as clients so that all your computers just use the ethernet interface and all the wireless work is done by the routers. In that way, you can still have wireless but you can get the unit well away from the computer. In fact, I'm kindof picky because I won't even plug in a DSL or cable modem to my system in case of lightning or a surge on the phone or cable cords. I just use routers that are bridged, so if I get a bad surge, my computer is only connected to the electrical outlet. I use a surge suppressor (replaced every year or two) and a line conditioner and a UPS. The new audio computer won't get the UPS, partly because its pointless and partly because they can add a bit of noise. My "server" computer with the raid array gets the UPS though. I wish I could get 120Mbps over wireless. Wireless G at 54Mbps is really only about 5Mbps full-duplex. I did some testing... I can get 15Mbps full-duplex with good high-power routers bridged with decent antennas through a wall. I think the most I got over an N laptop client and N router was 8Mbps full-duplex. Regardless, you'll be perfectly fine for streaming DVDs (less than 6Mbps Average half-duplex.) I think I've only been momentarily shocked by 120V AC a few times. I don't work on curcuits much. Once I accidentally electrified my door when I ran an extension cord outside. The door was metal and I actually measured 120V AC on the doorknob. You couldn't notice when you had your shoes on, but if you were sock-footed, you get a healthy jolt!

 

[ROBSCIX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thoppa /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi, The large caps will help to smooth the ripple. I'd get about 8-10,000uF of Nichicon HD if you can. The Solens will speed up the response of the capacitor bank and reduce some of the noise; you are right that they only come in high voltage - as do most MKP. The Sanyos will improve the performance of the cap bank at high frequencies. Given the noise on the board, I think most good quality psus with the above caps will do fine. I'd get linear rather than smps if you can but it's debatable whether you'd hear much if any difference. It's interesting about the cat cable - I guess these systems have strong line drivers to maintain the voltage over such lengths ? One of my friends won't use a surge suppressor because he says it affects current delivery. I pointed out that most of the current is stored in the toroid and caps but he won't have any of it. Each to their own eh ? I prefer to use isolation transformers....

Nice job, look snice and clean, did you do allt he soldering yourself?
As for Cat, cable I am guesing your talking about Cat 5..etc?
Yes, these cables also have their limits for length and yes line drivers need to be used. As for your buddy, as you may be figuring out, Audio if full of black magic and witchcraft!

 

[thoppa]

Hi,

I tried to solder myself but in the end I couldn't do the 28 pin chips. I took it to a 'pro' who got the src chip on at an angle and didn't match up the dots on the DAC ! So he took it to a real pro who did a quality job. Thankfully, it only cost me us$25 to get this done so it was still quite cheap to build. It uses an ad8656 and BG NX 220uF coupling caps, and it has enough juice to drive HD650, but not 'comfortably', so I'm also using a Mini3. I'm quite surprised by how good all this sounds....it's pretty amazing tbh. Almost impossible to fault in any way and all the best witchcraft and hocus pocus audiophile adjectives.... IIS / I2S is definitely better than spdif !

Actually, iso trans really work - put a 0.5uF cap across the primary, and get a centre tapped secondary and put 0.5uF across each to earth, and tie the centre to earth, and it very effectively filters the mains and isolates devices. I get double bobbin trans so the noise in the mains doesn't couple into the secondary because of the poor bandwidth of the iron coupling. Pretty much all my gear now has an iso trans.

Here are some pics of the finished HTPC :

 

[ROBSCIX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thoppa /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi, I tried to solder myself but in the end I couldn't do the 28 pin chips. I took it to a 'pro' who got the src chip on at an angle and didn't match up the dots on the DAC ! So he took it to a real pro who did a quality job. Thankfully, it only cost me us$25 to get this done so it was still quite cheap to build. It uses an ad8656 and BG NX 220uF coupling caps, and it has enough juice to drive HD650, but not 'comfortably', so I'm also using a Mini3. I'm quite surprised by how good all this sounds....it's pretty amazing tbh. Almost impossible to fault in any way and all the best witchcraft and hocus pocus audiophile adjectives.... IIS / I2S is definitely better than spdif ! Actually, iso trans really work - put a 0.5uF cap across the primary, and get a centre tapped secondary and put 0.5uF across each to earth, and tie the centre to earth, and it very effectively filters the mains and isolates devices. I get double bobbin trans so the noise in the mains doesn't couple into the secondary because of the poor bandwidth of the iron coupling. Pretty much all my gear now has an iso trans.

Cool stuff. I have been designing a HTPC, or rather a dedicated music player. I want it much smaller then a HTPC, as I want it the size of a small DVD player.
Great build. Enjoy.

 

[headfinoob]

Thoppa,
I decided to go with an Enermax Liberty Eco 400W PC PSU for now. I will probably add a bypass filter when I can afford it and/or find the time to create it. Hopefully some noise for the time being won't reduce the lifetime of the Onkyo too much.

Thanks for all the pics. I really like your final build, I think it looks well-done.

I will post some pics of my build when I am able to finish it. It seems that I don't have as much time as I wanted, so I'm not sure when it will be finished.

I have a quick question. For the bypass capacitor filter for the Intel board, how would you recommened soldering all the caps together (parellel of course), just get a small circuit board? I am serious when I say I am noob to DIY circuits! I was considering ghetto rigging it and soldering all the capacitor pins together to the ATX wires...

At ROBSCIX:
I'm sure that this Intel board is one a great choice for a dedicated music player, as it is very small, passively cooled, and low power. The problem it seems is the case, as the slim profile cases wouldn't allow for an expansion slot for a PCI card. You are probably looking at 3.5" width minimum for support for a low-profile expansion slot. I'm tempted to turn one of these Intel boards and a very slim-profile case into a router. Not enough time/money!

 

[thoppa]

Hi,

Rob - what board do you have in mind ? If you don't need video I'm sure you've seen some of the tiny pico itx boards right ? Very tasty....

Noob - if you can, mount the caps on something that will isolate them from vibration because I've read that vibrating caps produce electrical noise/microphonics. Dunno if it's true, but Mundorf go to some lengths to reduce the effects of vibration for their caps. You could just use cable ties and hot glue - it doesn't look 'pro' but it works very well and is cheap and very very easy.

After your door incident, I'm sure I don't need to tell you to use insulating tape/shrink wrap eh ?! I have a metal door out to the balcony where I do all my cutting up so I run a cable out for the power tools....your story is a good warning for me !

Also, the large value caps should be as near the power source as possible because that's what they are interacting with. Similarly, the Solens and Sanyos should be as close to the board as possible because you don't want the resistance and inductance of the connecting wires affecting their interaction with the mobo.

 

[headfinoob]

Thoppa,
I finally got my system up and running.
I am using a Western Digital Caviar Green 500GB drive for the OS and storage.
I had to use a Corsair VX450W PSU because I fried my Enermax Liberty Eco 400W PSU that I just got a few days ago....

I was removing the fan (4pin) and couldn't figure out how to keep the PSU on without having the fan plugged in. Unfortunately, in my experimentation with the 4 fan wires, I shorted the +12V fan wire to something and fried the 12V path on the PCB. The fan would of course not operate and then the PSU was effectively worthless to me. Lesson learned I suppose (anybody know how to keep a PC PSU with a 4pin fan on without the fan?)
I devoted to the system my Corsair VX450W PSU, which was the only other worthy unit that I have. The unit does have low ripple, but spikes up to 50mV pk-pk according to a couple of oscilligrams that I have seen of the unit.
Using my Fluke 77, I have measured RMS ripple of the computer system while it is playing. Interestingly, as long as there is no activity other than music playing, I get a reading of 0.001 V - 0.003 V. I noticed that there is definately noise from network activity, wireless keyboard and mouse input, and hard drive activity. I am not using wireless, so I can't comment on that. I am curious what the measurements are when I only Remote Desktop to the audio computer.
Strangely enough, the volume output doesn't seem to change the measurement much.
This leads me to a question that about Foobar and Kernel Streaming. What controls the output volume with your setup? This card works way differently than my Onkyo SE90-PCI regarding the way that the volume works using Kernel Streaming. On the SE90, if I muted the Master Volume, I would have no sound. On the SE200 LTD, if I mute the Master Volume, I still get sound. I got blasted with sound because I started playing music in Foobar for the first time with the new card and found that the Master Volume doesn't matter. The Foobar volume control now controls the output regardless of the Master Volume. This is the first card that I have seen that does this.
I used to Kernel Stream on the Creative Audigy 2 ZS as well. It worked like the SE90 in that the Master Volume controlled the output so I would always have the player volume maxed so that there was no post-processing on the signal for gain control.
I used the latest drivers from both VIA's website and the Onkyo Japan site, they both behave the same. I am using Windows XP. When I use Winamp, if I disable the volume control with the Kernel Streaming 3.63, then I get ear-raped when I play anything because it is outputting at the maximum volume.
I am worried that with the setup I have the drivers are just locking out the master volume control and the volume attenuation in Foobar and Winamp is digital and will cause signal degregation.
I will look into using older drivers I suppose, although I think the VIA generic driver I was using with my SE90 is the same driver as the one I'm using with the SE200.

On to the sound..., what matters right? This card indeed does sound amazing. I have to say it is a very large improvement from the SE90 that I've been using for quite some time. It is a nice bonus that the noise from the computer itself is very low, although I think the WD Green drive could be a little quieter. This card also seems to have a greater output as well, as I had to turn my gain on the amp all the way down. In short, it rocks! It seems to be sounding better as time goes on (9 hours of playback thus far.) I need to borrow a camera so I can post some pics of my build.
I plan on some day I'll build a noise bypass filter. Thanks for your help and support in this project.
-noob

 

[thoppa]

Hi,

Congrats !

Yeah, me too - KS bypasses the windows volume control, which is good news. I have to set the driver to the correct sample rate too, so it clearly is working at bypassing the windows mixer and needs the card driver set correctly to do it.

I use the Foobar volume if I want to do it remotely on the PC, but I prefer to set the volume on my amp and keep Foobar at 100% as I'm not certain Foobar will be able to maintain an accurate bit depth if it is asked to mathematically alter the volume. EDIT - I haven't looked at setting up a remote that works with the Onkyo driver.....that's on a list of to dos !

The card does sound good eh ? I think Onkyo have done a great job. It really doesn't need much modifying at all, if any really. I like the op amp change a lot but it isn't essential.

For atx psu fan noise, maybe you can find an ultra low noise fan and stick a resistor in the circuit to burn up some power and reduce the fan speed so it is silent ? But be careful about temperature rises !

Looking forward to your pics....

 

[ROBSCIX]

@thoppa, I want video so I have the player up on the screen. I have been looking for some of the ITX board and those may be the way to go.
I have a nice modified Essence ST running custom built discrete opamps that I want to drop in this player.

 

[headfinoob]

The PSU I'm using works fine with no fan at all, so there is no currently no fan at all in the system. The PSU I destroyed had a 4pin fan, and wouldn't operate without it. Oh well, I best cut my losses... If I got another one that wasn't damaged, I suppose I could send a false PWM signal on the sense wire to get it to work without a fan.
That is indeed exactly my concern regarding the Kernel Streaming. I don't have the ability to turn the amp down more (gain all the way down) and it is ear splittingly loud if I have the Foobar volume up all the way.
I always thought that Kernel Streaming would allow for the Master Volume to work while the WAV is muted. Now everything is muted and Foobar is what controls the output. I'll experiement with earlier drivers, but I used the same driver for the SE90 and it worked with the Master Volume, so I could have the Foobar volume maxed. I also have the sample rate at 44.1kHz but another lingering question is what bit-depth to set in the Foobar preferences? I use 16 bit but I've heard one should set 24 bit if they have a 24 bit DAC even if they are using 16 bit source material. Always something to learn....
If I had to guess, I would say it is a driver-level issue which locks out the Master Volume and maxes it out, so I am getting loss in the signal by attenuating the volume digitally with Foobar.
Oh well, it still sounds bitchin'
-noob

 

[headfinoob]

Another thing,
Now I'm worried that the DAC output volume is maxed causing significant clipping.
Thoppa, I'll let your ears tell the story, does it seem that there is clipping in the output which occurs above a certain digital Foobar attenuation? You would have the ability to test that, since my gain is at Min on my amp and I don't want to blow out my ears.
I don't want to harass too much, but I was curious. It seems info on this card and kernel streaming is very difficult to find.
At any rate, it still blows the SE90 out of the water... which is what I wanted (and of course to have a PC as a source...) As soon as I get a camera, I'll show you my ghetto rigging, heh.
-noob

 

[thoppa]

Hi,

I don't hear any signs of clipping at all. Actually, there's almost no chance of it since the output is 2volts and the op amps will probably swing 10v or more into a 20k load.

For me, I really want ks to bypass windows because it ensures the windows xp mixer isn't resampling everything to 48/16.

Have you found a way to control the volume in the Onkyo driver ?

Tom

 

[Little country rat]

Hi,

When using the stereo output you can't control the volume within the drivers (which is a good thing with Windows XP).
The only way is to adjust it directly with the player or the amp.
Prior to buying an head-amp I was using Foobar control volume without problem.

If using the multichannel output you can directly adress the onkyo drivers using the wave volume.