ONKYO DP-X1 | Dual Sabre Dacs | Balanced | Sabre BTL Amp | MQA | DSD 256 | Android 5 |

May 4, 2016 at 2:11 PM Post #7,951 of 16,375
 
You need to find out what streaming protocols your receiver supports.  It's probably UPNP/DLNA (a variation of which is called "OpenHome"), but you need to find out (as it is entirely possible, if not very likely, that it's something proprietary).  If it says it can function as a UPNP/DLNA renderer then you should be fine.  Then you'd use the DPX1 as the server and Control Point (though you could use another device as the Control Point as well).
 
"Wet string" as in string (the stuff you tie around things) that is wet ... 
tongue_smile.gif

 
It's an engineering joke.  String isn't generally conductive.  Water is (as long as it's not pure).  Thus making the string wet would make it more conductive than plain string (though not practically useable of course).  But the point being is it would, at best, be a very poor and unreliable connection and probably wouldn't work at all ... which, given the weakness of the Bluetooth implementation on the DPX1 (possible that I have a bad unit, but I've heard of enough others with the same issue that I'm inclined to doubt it), that even a "wet string" connection would be an improvement.

 
This is what the specs for the receiver state:
-DLNA connectivity to PCs and NAS drives  
-FLAC or WAV support up to 192 kHz / 24-bit
 
I may have gotten the "wet string" joke but the hyphen ("wet-string") in your original post threw me off, it made it sound like it was an actual technical term. 
 
May 4, 2016 at 2:57 PM Post #7,953 of 16,375
 
This leads to another question: If there is no way to achieve balanced out when plugging any player into the back of a receiver, are there another player in this price range, with similar storage capabilities, DSD, wi-fi, and Bluetooth (aptX) that would have better audio than the DP-X1? Would the Pioneer XDP-100R actually sound better with single-ended output to the receiver than the Onkyo? I have looked at the Pioneer, but I keep coming back to the Onkyo for the specs when it only costs $20 more.
 

 
I have actually listened to both the XDP-100R and the DP-X1's single-ended output, both with the same IEM (Etymotic ER4S) though not exactly volume matched. Personally, I think the DP-X1 SE out sounds better than the XDP-100R's, though it is not by a significant amount and YMMV. I think I can at least say that the XDP-100R doesn't sound better than the DP-X1 when it comes to single-ended out.
 
May 4, 2016 at 2:58 PM Post #7,954 of 16,375
Following up from my first post on the Onkyo DPX1 yesterday ... including a picture (for provenance, mostly):




Summary:

If you're looking at the DPX1 to use as a DAP, driving headphones directly from one of its two outputs, playing files from local storage using the built-in "Music" application, then it is an excellent little device with very high sound quality, solid battery life*, a fast and fluid user experience (at least with the 400+GB/12,000 files I tested with).

Used this way, via it's internal DAC and headphone amp, the sound quality is superb and easily bests the native outputs from an iPhone 6S (not surprising, really), my AK120 and an AK240 I was playing with at work yesterday.

So, as a straightforward DAP used as-is, I think it's well worth consideration and is unlikely to disappoint.  I'd recommended it, happily, for that use case - with the caveat that the headphone sockets really do seem rather insubstantial.

However, if you want to use Bluetooth headphones or an external DAC or wanting it to stream TIDAL or Spotify, or play music via other player applications on Android (via Google Play), then there are some significant issues you should be aware of.

Bluetooth:

I won't belabor the point; you can read my original post for more details here, but in short, beyond the normal Android fussiness with Bluetooth, this thing exhibits continuous, repeatable, drop outs in playback (tested with several different Bluetooth headphones now, including Blue-Buds X and Momentum 2.0 Wireless Over-Ear).  This issue is bad enough that I cannot listen to music via Bluetooth with the DPX1 in either my pant or shirt pockets (nor when I tried just holding it in my hand).  Even in my shirt breast pocket, at a range of about a foot, I get reduced audio quality and just turning my head results in the connection dropping completely until I turn it back.

It worked fine with the DPX1 on a desk with unobstructed line of sight to the headphone receiver, but range was maybe a third (at best) what I see from my iPhone, before it would start dropping out.

Distortion w/ Third Party Music Players:

Using third party music players results in audible distortion in quiet portions of the music.  This is most notable during the fade-out (or fade-in) of a track, but it's come up in classical pieces with quiet passages and in some contemporary music where the artists drops to a whisper for part of a song (etc.).  It's quite obvious and not something you're likely to miss and seriously spoils the viability of this player for use with third party players (the major draw, as I see it, for having an Android based DAP in the first place).

I've tested this with the standard TIDAL, Spotify, Amazon Music and Apple Music applications, all playing through the internal DAC/amp, and the distortion is present in all cases.  It didn't matter if I was streaming the file, or playing a locally cached copy.

I did not hear this same distortion when playing those applications via an external DAC, although that output is still subject to Android's native re-sampling.

Using External DACs:

This works fine, but unless you use something like USB Audio Player Pro, you're still subject to Android's native re-sampling which I can't say does sound quality any favors.  If you do opt to use a player that bypasses the Android Audio subsystem then you'll get to enjoy the issues I found (see my original post) in switching between players and getting them to release/recognize the DAC.

Most of my testing here was using a Chord Mojo.  I would say that the Mojo yields higher quality output that the built-in DAC/amp, and drives more challenging headphones with more authority.  

One of my hopes was to use the DPX1 as a transport with the Mojo for when not having to travel light (and when traveling light to use just the DPX1).  I found the messing around that was periodically necessary to switch between music players, with the hard-crashes (occasionally requiring a power-off/on cycle), meant I was sometimes spending several minutes getting my music playing ... often at the cost of as much as 10% battery life*!

Avoiding Android's Up-sampling:

If you're using an external DAC, you can do this with UAPP, and you'll want to as there is a quite noticeable improvement when you bypass it.  UAPP can stream directly from TIDAL now, and while the interface isn't as nice as the standard TIDAL client, it's worth it from a quality perspective.

Battery Life:

Battery life was excellent when playing music with the built-in player application, and even with streaming TIDAL over a solid WiFi connection I was seeing about 5-6% depletion per hour (sometimes as much as 10% if I was using more demanding headphones).  The claimed 16 hours in standalone mode is easily attained - though that only works with the built-in player also.

*However, doing anything with the device other than playing music causes the battery level to drop very rapidly.  In one case I spent about 5 minutes trying to get the player to release my external DAC from the built-in player and make it available for UAPP, and by the time I'd done that I'd lost 10% of my battery.

Final Thoughts:

Great as a standalone DAP, used as-is, with no third-party apps, no Bluetooth and no external DAC.  Need one of those items and there are issues that, even individually, seem to be well out of place in any dedicated player.  And, in combination, render the player unusable for me for my use cases.

And, I think this experience confirms that until Android has native support for multiple output sampling rates, with an option to bypass any kind of resampling, it's not something I want anywhere near a dedicated audio player regardless of who makes it or what other issues may exist.

For me, just too many issues, with the distortion and Bluetooth range/dropout issues being complete deal killers (I could probably come to live with the funkiness and instability when using external DACs if those other issues were not apparent).  So much promise, but it fails in actual execution.

[COLOR=FF0000]So ... I am returning my DPX1 today.[/COLOR]


I bet most of these issues could be solved if someone at xda wanted to put their time into it.
 
May 4, 2016 at 3:17 PM Post #7,955 of 16,375
   
This is what the specs for the receiver state:
-DLNA connectivity to PCs and NAS drives  
-FLAC or WAV support up to 192 kHz / 24-bit
 
I may have gotten the "wet string" joke but the hyphen ("wet-string") in your original post threw me off, it made it sound like it was an actual technical term. 


You should be fine then.
 
May 4, 2016 at 3:22 PM Post #7,956 of 16,375
I bet most of these issues could be solved if someone at xda wanted to put their time into it.

 
No doubt that the XDA team could address these issues - most of them seem to be software/firmware/driver issues for sure.
 
Onkyo could fix the issues too ...  but the thing has been out for long enough that they have time to find and fix these issues already, so I'm not betting on that.
 
And since the issues do exist in the product right now, and I've no desire to bugger about rooting the thing and installing custom third-party firmware, I returned it. 
 
My expectation is that when I buy a product it works properly at the time you get my money.  I do NOT buy on "futures", "promises" or "might be-es".  So if they get it fixed in the future I'll happily revisit it, but for now the issues just make it unworkable for me.
 
May 4, 2016 at 3:35 PM Post #7,957 of 16,375
No doubt that the XDA team could address these issues - most of them seem to be software/firmware/driver issues for sure.

Onkyo could fix the issues too ...  but the thing has been out for long enough that they have time to find and fix these issues already, so I'm not betting on that.

And since the issues do exist in the product right now, and I've no desire to bugger about rooting the thing and installing custom third-party firmware, I returned it. 

My expectation is that when I buy a product it works properly at the time you get my money.  I do NOT buy on "futures", "promises" or "might be-es".  So if they get it fixed in the future I'll happily revisit it, but for now the issues just make it unworkable for me.


I stand by your stance as a consumer. If I want a product I want it to be relatively bug free and polished before I'll try to enjoy it. The lack of post-release updates on a product to iron out all the bugs is also frowned upon when it comes to me. But who knows, maybe you did have a defective product and you were just unlucky and it isn't the whole line of DP-X1 that has all these issues. I hope this is the case because I've been interested in the DP-X1. But hey there's always the Walkman ZX2. I'll settle on the device that has the best audio quality headphone-out. Not the balanced out. But anyways here's to hoping a talented developer at xda can fix these issues in a custom rom or MOD for the DP-X1. :beerchug:
 
May 4, 2016 at 8:42 PM Post #7,958 of 16,375
Hi,
Why would you use external dac/amp with dp-x1? While the dp-x1 already has dual dac/amp in the 2.5mm output.
Does using external dac/amp makes sound better? If so then why would we buy the dp-x1 in the 1st place? We can use our phone with the external dac/amp.
I'm confuse.
Thanks.
 
May 4, 2016 at 9:12 PM Post #7,959 of 16,375
Hi,
Why would you use external dac/amp with dp-x1? While the dp-x1 already has dual dac/amp in the 2.5mm output.
Does using external dac/amp makes sound better? If so then why would we buy the dp-x1 in the 1st place? We can use our phone with the external dac/amp.
I'm confuse.
Thanks.


Because external DAC/amps can sound better.  The Chord Mojo does (in my opinion), for example.  It's also capable of driving more demanding headphones.
 
Phones don't have the ability to internally mount 400 GB of storage.  I can't use streaming when I'm on a plane or out at sea.  And I don't want to faff about switching memory cards (doing so pretty much limits you to navigating by folder, rather than via metadata).  The DPX1 has enough storage to act as a decent transport.  If you don't need/want that then no problem, but some of us do.
 
What I wanted with the DPX1 was something I could use as a standalone/all-in-one player when traveling light, but with the option to use it as a high capacity transport when I take the Mojo (etc.) with me.
 
May 4, 2016 at 9:35 PM Post #7,961 of 16,375
What kind of standby time does everyone get with this or does everyone just shut it down every time?


I only had mine for a few days, so this may vary over time - but with WiFi and Bluetooth enabled mine lost 1-2% of its battery over night.
 
While it doesn't pertain to standby time, when streaming via TIDAL to a Chord Mojo over a solid WiFi connection I was seeing the battery drop 5-6% per hour.
 
So battery life, in general, seems pretty robust.
 
May 4, 2016 at 9:40 PM Post #7,962 of 16,375
I only had mine for a few days, so this may vary over time - but with WiFi and Bluetooth enabled mine lost 1-2% of its battery over night.

While it doesn't pertain to standby time, when streaming via TIDAL to a Chord Mojo over a solid WiFi connection I was seeing the battery drop 5-6% per hour.

So battery life, in general, seems pretty robust.

Thanks! That's close to what I'm getting. That's to bad that you are getting rid of this, I really think overall that it is a great device.
Maybe you should check out the iBasso DX200.
 
May 4, 2016 at 9:46 PM Post #7,963 of 16,375
Following up from my first post on the Onkyo DPX1 yesterday ... including a picture (for provenance, mostly):




Summary:

If you're looking at the DPX1 to use as a DAP, driving headphones directly from one of its two outputs, playing files from local storage using the built-in "Music" application, then it is an excellent little device with very high sound quality, solid battery life*, a fast and fluid user experience (at least with the 400+GB/12,000 files I tested with).

Used this way, via it's internal DAC and headphone amp, the sound quality is superb and easily bests the native outputs from an iPhone 6S (not surprising, really), my AK120 and an AK240 I was playing with at work yesterday.

So, as a straightforward DAP used as-is, I think it's well worth consideration and is unlikely to disappoint.  I'd recommended it, happily, for that use case - with the caveat that the headphone sockets really do seem rather insubstantial.

However, if you want to use Bluetooth headphones or an external DAC or wanting it to stream TIDAL or Spotify, or play music via other player applications on Android (via Google Play), then there are some significant issues you should be aware of.

Bluetooth:

I won't belabor the point; you can read my original post for more details here, but in short, beyond the normal Android fussiness with Bluetooth, this thing exhibits continuous, repeatable, drop outs in playback (tested with several different Bluetooth headphones now, including Blue-Buds X and Momentum 2.0 Wireless Over-Ear).  This issue is bad enough that I cannot listen to music via Bluetooth with the DPX1 in either my pant or shirt pockets (nor when I tried just holding it in my hand).  Even in my shirt breast pocket, at a range of about a foot, I get reduced audio quality and just turning my head results in the connection dropping completely until I turn it back.

It worked fine with the DPX1 on a desk with unobstructed line of sight to the headphone receiver, but range was maybe a third (at best) what I see from my iPhone, before it would start dropping out.

Distortion w/ Third Party Music Players:

Using third party music players results in audible distortion in quiet portions of the music.  This is most notable during the fade-out (or fade-in) of a track, but it's come up in classical pieces with quiet passages and in some contemporary music where the artists drops to a whisper for part of a song (etc.).  It's quite obvious and not something you're likely to miss and seriously spoils the viability of this player for use with third party players (the major draw, as I see it, for having an Android based DAP in the first place).

I've tested this with the standard TIDAL, Spotify, Amazon Music and Apple Music applications, all playing through the internal DAC/amp, and the distortion is present in all cases.  It didn't matter if I was streaming the file, or playing a locally cached copy.

I did not hear this same distortion when playing those applications via an external DAC, although that output is still subject to Android's native re-sampling.

Using External DACs:

This works fine, but unless you use something like USB Audio Player Pro, you're still subject to Android's native re-sampling which I can't say does sound quality any favors.  If you do opt to use a player that bypasses the Android Audio subsystem then you'll get to enjoy the issues I found (see my original post) in switching between players and getting them to release/recognize the DAC.

Most of my testing here was using a Chord Mojo.  I would say that the Mojo yields higher quality output that the built-in DAC/amp, and drives more challenging headphones with more authority.  

One of my hopes was to use the DPX1 as a transport with the Mojo for when not having to travel light (and when traveling light to use just the DPX1).  I found the messing around that was periodically necessary to switch between music players, with the hard-crashes (occasionally requiring a power-off/on cycle), meant I was sometimes spending several minutes getting my music playing ... often at the cost of as much as 10% battery life*!

Avoiding Android's Up-sampling:

If you're using an external DAC, you can do this with UAPP, and you'll want to as there is a quite noticeable improvement when you bypass it.  UAPP can stream directly from TIDAL now, and while the interface isn't as nice as the standard TIDAL client, it's worth it from a quality perspective.

Battery Life:

Battery life was excellent when playing music with the built-in player application, and even with streaming TIDAL over a solid WiFi connection I was seeing about 5-6% depletion per hour (sometimes as much as 10% if I was using more demanding headphones).  The claimed 16 hours in standalone mode is easily attained - though that only works with the built-in player also.

*However, doing anything with the device other than playing music causes the battery level to drop very rapidly.  In one case I spent about 5 minutes trying to get the player to release my external DAC from the built-in player and make it available for UAPP, and by the time I'd done that I'd lost 10% of my battery.

Final Thoughts:

Great as a standalone DAP, used as-is, with no third-party apps, no Bluetooth and no external DAC.  Need one of those items and there are issues that, even individually, seem to be well out of place in any dedicated player.  And, in combination, render the player unusable for me for my use cases.

And, I think this experience confirms that until Android has native support for multiple output sampling ra

[COLOR=FF0000]So ... I am returning my DPX1 today.[/COLOR]

Hi Torq,
In the part of 3rd party player, the words "internal dac and amp" mean the system chips instead of the ESS DAC/AMP?
Thanks!
 
May 4, 2016 at 9:48 PM Post #7,964 of 16,375
Thanks! That's close to what I'm getting. That's to bad that you are getting rid of this, I really think overall that it is a great device.
Maybe you should check out the iBasso DX200.


It is a shame that I had to return it.  I was really excited for the DPX1 as there's nothing else out there right now that can do everything it can do (at least not with dual card slots).  Hopefully Onkyo will fix the software issues and I can give it another go in a while.
 
The iBasso DX200 was really interesting ... right up until it was posted that it'd be using Android as its OS.  Unless iBasso are completely re-writing the audio stack so that it'll work, without forced re-sampling, with external DACs (hell, even with the internal one and standard music clients) then, for me, that'll kill the deal.  But if they can pull that off, I'd definitely be in for one.
 
May 4, 2016 at 9:52 PM Post #7,965 of 16,375
Hi Torq,
In the part of 3rd party player, the words "internal dac and amp" mean the system chips instead of the ESS DAC/AMP?
Thanks!


When I wrote that it was actually referring to the ESS DAC/AMP as the "internal" one (as opposed to the Mojo I'd also been using), since I assumed that'd be the native internal output path even for third party players.
 
As I've done more research there is mounting suspicion that the third-party players are actually winding up using the DAC that is present on the main SoC, and not the ESS parts, and that that is the cause of the distortion with those players and low-level passages in the music.  If so that should be easy for Onkyo to fix ... they just have to do it! ;)
 

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