ONKYO DP-X1 | Dual Sabre Dacs | Balanced | Sabre BTL Amp | MQA | DSD 256 | Android 5 |

[Peridot]

  Interesting, there were people saying a few pages back that DP-X1s Balanced port is better than Mojo's because that's SE. I disagree, Mojo is still quite a bit better everywhere, including power, resolution, musicality and overall experience. So you see, I'm not a balanced is best sort of fanboi. However, when comparing DP-X1s own ports, balanced wins hands down. I have done A to B with my PM3 and there's no contest. That's not to say SE is bad by any means, its just that if you want to get the best of your DAP, you have to go balanced.

 
I absolutely agree 

 
There's no point whatsoever buying a DP-X1 and using the SE output only (or mainly). Same with any other balanced source components. If the effort has gone into the balanced design, that's where the sound quality will be.

 

[x RELIC x]

Since the Mojo SE question keeps popping up in this thread I'll drop a couple posts from Rob Watts (Mojo/Hugo/Hugo TT/Dave designer) on why he doesn't use balanced output. His DACs are simply very different from typical implementations and don't require balanced to sound better. He feels that balanced implementation actually degrades his gear.

Component count is very important for transparency. Doubling the number of parts in the direct signal path does degrade depth perception and detail resolution.

But there is another problem with balanced operation. Imagine a balanced differential in, differential out amplifier. The input stage is normally a differential pair (maybe cascoded) with a constant current source. Now the input stage is free to move up and down to accommodate the common mode voltage - but the input stage common mode impedance is non linear, and if the common mode voltage has a signal component (it always will have due to component tolerances) then this will create a signal dependent error current, thereby generating distortion. Unfortunately, the negative feedback loop of the amplifier can't correct for this distortion as it can't see the error on the summing nodes. So there will always be a limit to the performance. With SE operation, this problem does not occur, as the differential input stage is clamped to ground.

Now DAC designers are well aware of this - that's why all high performance DAC's use two single ended I to V converters from the current OP of the DAC's, then use a differential to SE converter to create the voltage OP. There are other reasons for doing this as well, as the DAC requires a very low impedance virtual ground for low distortion, and you can only get this using dual SE amps - another problem is RF and its much easier to decouple SE than differentially - this in turn creates a lot more noise floor modulation, making it sound less smooth.

But for me the most important is transparency. I had an amp that had two modes - differential or SE - listening in balanced mode flattened the sound stage depth dramatically,and it sounded harder, less smooth. That said, there are circumstances when balanced operation can be better than SE, for example when you are looking at connecting a pre-amp to a power amp, and what is best depends upon particular circumstances. In short, if SE operation is noisy, try balanced.

Rob 

Rob you should give a definitive 'why SE is better' explanation. Get it over with, because many (most) audiophiles have been biased towards balanced and are not going to understand where you are coming from.

One good argument I heard from the Densen founder (Thomas Sillesen) is that each half of the signwave runs through a series of components that will always have tolerances different from each other, so when combining the signal they will not ever match, causing an increase in distortion (of some kind I cannot remember).

Charles Hanson, of Ayre, who is a proponent of fully balanced equipment, has even stated that for pure sound quality SE will always sound better, but this is on the bench, where the power supply and analog signal stages can be kept physically apart. When putting them in a box he prefers balanced.

Well this is a complex subject, and sometimes a balanced connection does sound better than single ended (SE) - in a pre-power context - but it depends upon the environment, and the pre and power and the interconnect. But the downside of balanced is that you are doubling the number of analogue components in the direct signal path, and this degrades transparency. In my experience every passive component is audible, every metal to metal interface (including solder joints - I once had a lot of fun listening to solder) has an impact - in case of metal/metal interfaces it degrades detail resolution and the perception of depth. So going balanced will have a cost in transparency.

In DAC design, going balanced is essential with silicon design; there is simply too much substrate noise and other effects not too. But with discrete DAC's you do not need to worry about this, so going SE on a discrete DAC is possible, and is how all my DAC's are done. But differential operation hides certain problems (notably reference circuit) that has serious SQ effects; so going SE means those problems are exposed, which forces one to solve the issue fundamentally. In short, to make SE work you have to solve many more problems, but the result of solving those problems solves SQ issues than differential operation hides when you do measurements.

In the case of Dave, I have gotten state of the art measured performance - distortion harmonics below -150 dB, zero measurable noise floor modulation - and there is no way you could do this with a differential architecture. So it is possible to have better measured performance with SE than differential, but it is a lot harder to do it - indeed, the only way of getting virtually zero distortion and noise floor modulation is SE.  

Rob 

Bold added by me in the last quote.

 

[georgelai57]

Just get both, and sometimes, just for variety, pair them together.

 

[pato128]

  Just get both, and sometimes, just for variety, pair them together.

+ 1

 

[Sonic Defender]

  Just get both, and sometimes, just for variety, pair them together.

Yikes, you had better have a good job and lots of free money with that approach.

 

[signoftimes]

Has anyone ever experienced any reboot of the DP-X1 after the firmware upgrade, during playback?

I just experienced the second time within a week after the firmware upgrade.  Not sure why this is happening as I was not even touching the DAP or have the WiFi turned on to access anything.

 

[sabloke]

I've got both and loving it. The DAP is quite practical on the road as one device solutions are. Mojo however, does a better job at the office and at home, working as DAC connected to PCs. Combining double micro SD capacity, Android flexibility and Mojo sound by stacking them together-priceless. Who cares how much that cost when it sounds so sweet?

 

[Sonic Defender]

  Who cares how much that cost when it sounds so sweet?

People who have limited funds and bills to pay? I take it you have a healthy income, be grateful if that is the case, many people do not and one of these devices can be a huge investment.

 

[sabloke]

If money are an issue, get the DP-X1 and run it balanced to get the best bang for buck. And I mean, the best bang for buck when it comes to sound quality, flexibility, capacity and looks! I paid A$899 for the Mojo and A$808 for the DP-X1. Sure, Mojo edges the DAP in sound quality but then the DAP is so versatile. Using it as transport for Mojo might seem a bit silly but what can I do, love both devices...

 

[krismusic]

Ive heard the Mojo twice and been underwhelmed both times. I guess transparent and neutral are not a sound sig that I like. The Onkyo HA200 on the other hand I like a lot. Each to their own eh?

 

[sabloke]

Absolutely! I'm happy settling to DP-X1 rather than shedding a small fortune on AK240, hehe

 

[rrollens]

   
Have you tried to tune dp-x1 sound by using Digital filter, Lock range, Gain level, Up-sampling, or even switch to Neutron and Poweramp ?  If not, then you may only be using 60% of dp-x1's capability.  Not to mention you never tried the 2.5 balanced or balanced with ACG.

Thank you. I have done all the things you mentioned in your Post. I enjoy the DP-X1 solely for the balanced out with 2.5mm cables and my higher end IEMs. I would not bother listening to the Onkyo in SE since my QP1R is far superior in the SE sound department.

 

[rrollens]

Obviously it's subjective so no comment on preference by me, but @addyg makes a good point about going balanced. It's noticeably a step up from SE (on the Onkyo, anyway) and if you're into using the best of everything in the signal chain, you could probably add balanced out to your list above, Rick.

Thank you for your comments. I do only use the DP-X1 in balanced out mode.

 

[FidelityCastro]

 

Have you tried to tune dp-x1 sound by using Digital filter, Lock range, Gain level, Up-sampling, or even switch to Neutron and Poweramp ?  If not, then you may only be using 60% of dp-x1's capability.  Not to mention you never tried the 2.5 balanced or balanced with ACG.

Thank you. I have done all the things you mentioned in your Post. I enjoy the DP-X1 solely for the balanced out with 2.5mm cables and my higher end IEMs. I would not bother listening to the Onkyo in SE since my QP1R is far superior in the SE sound department.

Well said mate.

 

[masterpfa]

Ive heard the Mojo twice and been underwhelmed both times. I guess transparent and neutral are not a sound sig that I like. The Onkyo HA200 on the other hand I like a lot. Each to their own eh?

+1
Sometimes people forget that one point.