[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JaZZ /img/forum/go_quote.gif No, I'm seriously interested. .

Well, let us know what you find out, it is an intriguing idea.

 

[Black Stuart]

Jazz,
my introduction to sub-atomic particle physics was a brilliant book called - The Dancing Wu-Li Masters. I can't remember the author's name but was mainly comprised of consonants and he came originally from Poland, anyway google the title and see what comes up.

Art is quite right - the universe does pulse and energy does move in packets. Nowadays many involved in this incredibly fascinating field don't talk about particles or waves but 'wavicles'.

When Art talks about how the present is formed and all it's legion possibilities - it used to be called the 'continuum'., which shamans from many different races could walk into and out of. The Celts and native Americans were among many that could. Unfortunately Christianity in all its many forms did not like this. The whole Merlin thing is a pathetic joke - he was'nt called Merlin that's Saxon gibberish and he was'nt Christian (neither were the Saxons at the time) he provided the spiritual strength for the Celtic cavalry lead by Arturo to fight the nasty illegal aliens from the Steppes - Saxons/Engli/Jutlanders etc.

The whole 'continuum/sub-atomic particle' thing is worthy of serious study because if you have an open mind it will literally change the way you 'look' at life, the universe and everything.

It is certainly far more interesting and fulfilling than arguing over sampling rates of CD.

 

[JaZZ]

Thanks, Stuart! Im definitely going to search this book.

Gary Zukav
The Dancing Wu Li Masters
An Overview of the New Physics
.

 

[hciman77]

Art, if you want me to do a page by page search for it I will do so, but I will do it my own pace and if I do it and I cannot find the article you will have to pay me for my time.

I will search the years 1972 - 1984 i.e 13 years worth. If I fail to find the article you agree to pay me. If I find the article you owe me nothing.

I will do a pilot study of one years worth to calculate how many hours it will take me and determine the final fee and how long it will take me in elapsed time, hey you are a doctor and I am a poor student so you can afford the cash more than I can afford the time.

I anticipate I will do it at the rate of one year per week (~1500 - 1800 pages) I am busy trying to do a PhD here. I will give an update each week.

How does that sound ?

Details can be thrashed out later.

 

[fuzydice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif Stuff like the high pitched distortion you mentioned which is especially noticable on anything with Brass instruments is caused by playing with a worn stylus.

I never said high pitched distortion, nor did I mention Brass instruments. And I'm not sure if you're implying that my stylus is worn or if the record had been played previously with a worn stylus. My stylus (on a Shure M97xE cart) has less than 100 hours on it, is clean, and is in good condition. I would rather not get into a discussion here about the reasons for record damage and possible solutions as this thread already suffers from several crippling tangents that see no hope of return.

However, this mini-discussion is another example why vinyl may not be superior. Both vinyl and cd's can both suffer from scratches, but cd's don't generally wear out or are damaged by a worn out laser (or are they?)...

On this topic, however, we can't forget that CD's do fall victim to a different form of disintegration: "CD Rot"
- wikipedia entry for CD Rot
- some other site on the topic

Even mp3s/flacs/oggs/aac's can deteriorate on your hard drive should the drive begin to develop bad sectors, resulting in awful "bloops" in the music, but that's for another discussion altogether as well.

No format is without drawbacks, it seems.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black Stuart /img/forum/go_quote.gif Jazz, my introduction to sub-atomic particle physics was a brilliant book called - The Dancing Wu-Li Masters. I can't remember the author's name but was mainly comprised of consonants and he came originally from Poland, anyway google the title and see what comes up. Art is quite right - the universe does pulse and energy does move in packets. Nowadays many involved in this incredibly fascinating field don't talk about particles or waves but 'wavicles'. When Art talks about how the present is formed and all it's legion possibilities - it used to be called the 'continuum'., which shamans from many different races could walk into and out of. The Celts and native Americans were among many that could. Unfortunately Christianity in all its many forms did not like this. The whole Merlin thing is a pathetic joke - he was'nt called Merlin that's Saxon gibberish and he was'nt Christian (neither were the Saxons at the time) he provided the spiritual strength for the Celtic cavalry lead by Arturo to fight the nasty illegal aliens from the Steppes - Saxons/Engli/Jutlanders etc. The whole 'continuum/sub-atomic particle' thing is worthy of serious study because if you have an open mind it will literally change the way you 'look' at life, the universe and everything. It is certainly far more interesting and fulfilling than arguing over sampling rates of CD.

Well, a good sample rate can get you in those spiritual highs.

(we know allready music can trigger emotions).

It is good to know why or why not something sounds better then something else. If we, the headfiers don't care about music or musical reproduction, then the fast majority won't, wich allready adopted mp3 in it's wide open arms....

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fuzydice /img/forum/go_quote.gif I never said high pitched distortion, nor did I mention Brass instruments. And I'm not sure if you're implying that my stylus is worn or if the record had been played previously with a worn stylus. My stylus (on a Shure M97xE cart) has less than 100 hours on it, is clean, and is in good condition. I would rather not get into a discussion here about the reasons for record damage and possible solutions as this thread already suffers from several crippling tangents that see no hope of return. However, this mini-discussion is another example why vinyl may not be superior. Both vinyl and cd's can both suffer from scratches, but cd's don't generally wear out or are damaged by a worn out laser (or are they?)... On this topic, however, we can't forget that CD's do fall victim to a different form of disintegration: "CD Rot" - wikipedia entry for CD Rot - some other site on the topic Even mp3s/flacs/oggs/aac's can deteriorate on your hard drive should the drive begin to develop bad sectors, resulting in awful "bloops" in the music, but that's for another discussion altogether as well. No format is without drawbacks, it seems.

It seems nothing in life is eternal.....

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hciman77 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Art, if you want me to do a page by page search for it I will do so, but I will do it my own pace and if I do it and I cannot find the article you will have to pay me for my time. I will search the years 1972 - 1984 i.e 13 years worth. If I fail to find the article you agree to pay me. If I find the article you owe me nothing. I will do a pilot study of one years worth to calculate how many hours it will take me and determine the final fee and how long it will take me in elapsed time, hey you are a doctor and I am a poor student so you can afford the cash more than I can afford the time. I anticipate I will do it at the rate of one year per week (~1500 - 1800 pages) I am busy trying to do a PhD here. I will give an update each week. How does that sound ? Details can be thrashed out later.

Isn't it a bit strange you have to do the work for him?!

He came up with the 5% thump rule and i for one can find nothing on the web to verify this statement...so, for now...i will give arthur the benefit of the doubt...

 

[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif Isn't it a bit strange you have to do the work for him?! He came up with the 5% thump rule and i for one can find nothing on the web to very this statement...

Nobody so far can , I strongly feel it just doesnt exist, that it is a complete myth and hopeless misrecollection, numerous experts have poo-poo'ed it. However, there is a very very small possibility that it does exist, it is small enough for me to gamble my time as long as the payoff is suitable and I can do it at my own pace, and Art has refused point blank to do it himself. If it does exist it will be interesting to read, if it doesnt exist I get paid for my time.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hciman77 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Nobody so far can , I strongly feel it just doesnt exist, that it is a complete myth and hopeless misrecollection, numerous experts have poo-poo'ed it. However, there is a very very small possibility that it does exist, it is small enough for me to gamble my time as long as the payoff is suitable and I can do it at my own pace, and Art has refused point blank to do it himself. If it does exist it will be interesting to read, if it doesnt exist I get paid for my time.

The point is: IF hirsh sais it is 5% in an article, the question still remains the same...is this figure true! The only people who can answer this are the people back at philips and sony...

It's a blast from the past anyway...since 64 bits are used now during recording sessions and sacd and new sample rates (24 bits 192khz upsampling) are introduced these new techniques make this question somewhat obsolete.

 

[clarke68]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool LP was well on the way out of the mass market by the time Cassette sales peaked and the same now is true for CD.

Your memory of music sales in the '80s is different than mine...I don't recall cassettes ever pushing LPs out of the mass market, and they certainly did not have them "well on the way out" by the time CDs arrived as you so colorfully describe. However, I can't support my memory with any hard facts, as I don't know any solid figures that go back that far. If you have them, please share.

Everyone knows that CD sales have gone down in the 21st century, it's gone from being the only format of any consequence in the mass market to having a serious contenter in digital downloads. Even with the losses, CD sales are a $10.5 billion a year business (at least they were in 2005, probably less than that now) and the record industry isn't going to walk away from that (around 80% of their revenue) any time soon.

You want to talk about hot emergent formats? Look at the "Mobile" row in the RIAA chart I linked to above...the sales of cell phone ring tones wasn't even tracked in 2004, but in 2005 it beat the sales of downloaded singles by almost $60 million! Does this mean that John Q. Public would rather listen to music on his cell phone than on CD? No...it's just another distribution channel. The more channels the record industry has (the more opportunities to sell things) the better for them. Expect to see more format options in the future, not less.


Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool Vinyl sales fell worldwide throughout the 80's and then bounced back in the 90's due to the Hip Hop and Dance scenes which are driven by 12 " sales.

Vinyl sales may have increased in the '90s, but if you're implying they "bounced back" to anything even close to '80s levels, that simply isn't true. Look at the RIAA chart. LPs had a "peak" in 1998 (interestingly, just two years before CDs peak in 2000) with 3.4 million units shipped, a whopping 2.5% of what CD sales were that year.


Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool 12" sales have been declining in the UK but have been surplanted by 7" sales which have had the same exponential growth as downloads in the last few years...

Again, take a look at the RIAA chart. 7" sales growth is nowhere near the growth in digital downloads. Heck, it isn't even growth. Sales of vinyl singles have been falling 2-3 times faster than CD sales so far this century.

Look, I don't know the future, but based on what's currently happening in the market I don't see vinyl ever being anything more than a niche player for (relatively) tiny groups of nostalgics, audiophiles & DJs. If you've got some actual data to suggest otherwise I'd like to see it, but your hyperbolic assertions aren't changing my mind.

 

[Le Dechaine]

Well, technical question now, is it possible to quantize the vinyl quality? Or you just can't even estimate, because it's analog?

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Déchaîné /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, technical question now, is it possible to quantize the vinyl quality? Or you just can't even estimate, because it's analog?

I think, o rknow for certain that the recording equipment can....they use 64 bit technologie now....losses...It's the playback equipment that trails behind...

I read somewhere along time ago that a man was wondering why the cd's were still not up to notch in comparisson to the recordings...

Now back to vinyl, it is also not a perfect representation of the original recording...especially when the mould pressed alot of lp's the quality of the last ones pressed is much, much less then the first 500...the mould starts to wear pretty quick and the last ones are poor samples...

In that the cd is much better, but if you have the luck to buy a first 500 sample you're in for musical bliss...IF you have the right playback equipment.

Now back to your answer: yes, i think so...they can measure the frequency responce..so they can do the math to figure out how much it would take to make an exact copy of the orignal recorded sinewave...


It seems now the discs are getting more and more space..in the end we might get cd's or an evoluation of cd, like sacd or dvd-audio, with the full analogue signal on them...in the end, it's just a matter of space on the mobile media...

 

[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Déchaîné /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, technical question now, is it possible to quantize the vinyl quality? Or you just can't even estimate, because it's analog?

Shannon (Communications theory) will tell you it is a function of bandwidth and dynamic range. Estimates range but using an average dynamic range of 78db (which is apparently very good for normal non half-speed mastered vinyl with ~20 mins per side) and assuming only the standard audible range (0 - 20k) you get an estimate of approximately 13 bits.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.a...c7d4639f541f2e

You will find this figure emerges a lot on newsgroups.

Now vinyl does extend beyond 20K but what you can actually put on an LP has a much lower dynamic range in the 20k plus range, regardless of what cartrdiges may extract, and thus most ignore it for the purposes of information calculations. The whole 20K+ debate is a separate question.

Post #7 here http://www.head-fi.org/forums/showth...inyl+bandwidth

Has a good explanation framed in Kbytes/S and measurable data. If we are talking about quantifying then stick to measurable data points and estimates which have a basis in some kind of physical theory and ignore all the continuous and infinite stuff it simply isnt relevant to the maths which is what you are after right ? If tthe debate is about quantifying data then keep to the physical world and leave metaphyiscs out.

 

[Born2bwire]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif Looking at a wavechart it is...

SACD does not sample the waveform like PCM and these gaps that you see do not correlate in the same way as they do with PCM. In PCM, the gaps correlate directly to the maximum frequency component that can be reproduced but does not indicate in any way the accuracy of this reproduction (that is dependent upon the reconstruction filter on the DAC but ideally it is a perfect reconstruction). SACD uses delta-sigma which relates the change in the waveform, not the absolute position like in PCM. I cannot make an exact correlation here with the sampling rate because I do not know exactly how DSD is encoded and decoded. Wikipedia reports that over the span of redbook, DSD has 120 dB dynamic range and at the highest frequency of DVD-A, DSD has approximately 20 bit quantization compared to 24 bits for DVD-A. The advantage of DSD though is that it can avoid some of the ringing that results from the desired brickwall filter that is needed for PCM. However, this comes at the cost of decreasing dynamic range as the frequency increases, hence why it has a 24 dB less dynamic range at DVD-A's Nyquist frequency.

Take a look at Analog Device's applet that demonstrates a sigma-delta A/D converter. For a constant DC input, the actual bitstream varies in time as does the resulting output.

http://www.analog.com/Analog_Root/st...dtutorial.html