[JaZZ]

  I don't doubt that the HD 800 would be improved with physical modifications and perhaps tube amps. My comments on it were only relating to the headphone in stock form, with and without equalization, and driven from solid state DAC/amps such as the 430HAD, HDVD 800, and Mojo. (I have mentioned in the past that its basic sound signature remained the same no matter how powerful the amp was.)
 
All I know is that when I listen to STAX, it sounds a lot like real instruments, and when I listen to the HD 800 (regardless of amplification or EQ), it sounds...well...like how I described it here. I acknowledge its abilities, but they come at too dear a cost. I've had my entire life to become familiar with the sound of real instruments, and the HD 800 just comes off as an alien robot to me. If the various tweaks available could make it stop sounding like that, and also have proper power/impact/aggression, that would impress me.

 
There's nothing wrong with your preference, and I can easily reproduce it, although in detail I don't hear the same flaws as you do. To me the HD 800 sounds ultra-fast and -impactful, at least when modified and equalized, has even a bit more punch than my two electrostats across the spectrum. I can see why you perceive the sound of your SR-207 as more natural – in certain sonic aspects I'm sure I would agree. However, in others it's the other way around.
 
It's seductive to think that one's own hearing be somehow better than that of others, particularly based on experience as a musician. But you're not alone in this position, I've been a (Rock/Jazz) musician myself – playing bass guitar and double bass –, and I'm sure there are many others with active musical experience. Moreover I attend classical concerts now and then, so I know the sound of acoustic instruments – my main reference since ever – quite well. As mentioned in the conversation between you and me, the HD 800 isn't even my number one – that's my (modified and equalized) HE1000 (V1). I'm not sure if you would agree with me, after all I think that it reproduces instrument timbres best of all headphones I own and know. Its planar magnetic drivers use an ultra-thin and -light foil membrane approaching electrostatics', and a special asymmetrical magnet system makes for extreme acoustic openness possibly enabling the least inner reflections of any buyable headphone to date (relatively speaking – in absolute terms it's still too much); as I hear it, this pays off in the most realistic sonic colors and an excellent imaging of spatial depth. The bad thing is that with its original tuning and with the stock cable it sounds a bit slow, but that changes a lot after recabling and equalizing, which increases resolution to quasi-electrostatic level. The «quasi» may even be a benefit, since it renounces the typical stator reflections responsible for the etherealism electrostats are known for.
 
So to each his and her own! Do you still have access to a pair of SR-207? I'm asking because I had the suspicion that your memory could have transfigured its sound quality to unrealistic levels – especially considering the entry-level amp you were using with it.

 

[JaZZ]

 

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Oh, also that, but the idea is that that metal plate is a big part of how their magic works
 
I did see a pair disassembled and the idea looks as it follows:
 
http://www.head-fi.org/products/ultrasone-dj1-pro/reviews/17937
 

 
 
You can see those white holes covered with paper, the reflection from the back of the driver will come out through those. 
 
Also, half of the driver is covered by metal, so there will also be some direct relfections there - I suspect there are three degrees of reflection for every single sound - that would make sense. 
 
First is the sound which is pure 
 
Then the first degree of reflective sound that came from between the metal plate and the driver
 
The reflection that comes from the sound being reflected in the metal plate from the front of the driver, but coming from the holes covered with paper
 
Then the reflection from the back of the driver and that comes out those holes 
 
Then the final sound that might have some reflective traces between ear and the metal plate. 
 
They sound very good in practice though I do doubt as well how exact and clear is the transient response and the final sound is smeared for Dj One Pro - kinda like unclear like a fuzzy sound for many notes. 

 
I am still using them because I do need a closed back headphone with crazy soundstage. They do have the largest soundstage of the closed back headphones that I tried so far... 

 
There's most likely something to the Ultrasone design when it comes to soundstage – but it's not exactly a philosophy for audio purists who try to get a signal as pure and unaltered as possible for maximum transparency.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  There's nothing wrong with your preference, and I can easily reproduce it, although in detail I don't hear the same flaws as you do. To me the HD 800 sounds ultra-fast and -impactful, at least when modified and equalized, has even a bit more punch than my two electrostats across the spectrum. I can see why you perceive the sound of your SR-207 as more natural – in certain sonic aspects I'm sure I would agree. However, in others it's the other way around.
 
It's seductive to think that one's own hearing be somehow better than that of others, particularly based on experience as a musician. But you're not alone in this position, I've been a (Rock/Jazz) musician myself – playing bass guitar and double bass –, and I'm sure there are many others with active musical experience. Moreover I attend classical concerts now and then, so I know the sound of acoustic instruments – my main reference since ever – quite well. As mentioned in the conversation between you and me, the HD 800 isn't even my number one – that's my (modified and equalized) HE1000 (V1). I'm not sure if you would agree with me, after all I think that it reproduces instrument timbres best of all headphones I own and know. Its planar magnetic drivers use an ultra-thin and -light foil membrane approaching electrostatics', and a special asymmetrical magnet system makes for extreme acoustic openness possibly enabling the least inner reflections of any buyable headphone to date (relatively speaking – in absolute terms it's still too much); as I hear it, this pays off in the most realistic sonic colors and an excellent imaging of spatial depth. The bad thing is that with its original tuning and with the stock cable it sounds a bit slow, but that changes a lot after recabling and equalizing, which increases resolution to quasi-electrostatic level. The «quasi» may even be a benefit, since it renounces the typical stator reflections responsible for the etherealism electrostats are known for.
 
So to each his and her own! Do you still have access to a pair of SR-207? I'm asking because I had the suspicion that your memory could have transfigured its sound quality to unrealistic levels – especially considering the entry-level amp you were using with it.

 
I'm sure they would be on another level with modifications.
 
I heard the HE1000 for a few hours on the 430HAD (as well as briefly on the HDVD 800) with my own tracks consisting of most genres of music. In stock form it's too lush and smooth for me, but I noticed how nice softer instruments (like harps) sounded on it. I preferred the 207 over it, no contest...but again, this is without any modifications or EQ.
 
I no longer own the 207. (I keep my profile and signature updated with my current status.) I heard tons of other headphones (including ultra-high-end ones) around the time I had it.
 
Anyway, impact (actual macrodynamic impact; think brutal death metal drums being reproduced accurately) is important to me, so the Abyss and HE6 (both of which I have heard) appeal to me a lot more.

 

[Dobrescu George]

   
There's most likely something to the Ultrasone design when it comes to soundstage – but it's not exactly a philosophy for audio purists who try to get a signal as pure and unaltered as possible for maximum transparency.

 
Do you know any closed back headphone that sounds open or has a lot of soundstage? I'm pretty curious about this 

 
 

   
There's nothing wrong with your preference, and I can easily reproduce it, although in detail I don't hear the same flaws as you do. To me the HD 800 sounds ultra-fast and -impactful, at least when modified and equalized, has even a bit more punch than my two electrostats across the spectrum. I can see why you perceive the sound of your SR-207 as more natural – in certain sonic aspects I'm sure I would agree. However, in others it's the other way around.
 
It's seductive to think that one's own hearing be somehow better than that of others, particularly based on experience as a musician. But you're not alone in this position, I've been a (Rock/Jazz) musician myself – playing bass guitar and double bass –, and I'm sure there are many others with active musical experience. Moreover I attend classical concerts now and then, so I know the sound of acoustic instruments – my main reference since ever – quite well. As mentioned in the conversation between you and me, the HD 800 isn't even my number one – that's my (modified and equalized) HE1000 (V1). I'm not sure if you would agree with me, after all I think that it reproduces instrument timbres best of all headphones I own and know. Its planar magnetic drivers use an ultra-thin and -light foil membrane approaching electrostatics', and a special asymmetrical magnet system makes for extreme acoustic openness possibly enabling the least inner reflections of any buyable headphone to date (relatively speaking – in absolute terms it's still too much); as I hear it, this pays off in the most realistic sonic colors and an excellent imaging of spatial depth. The bad thing is that with its original tuning and with the stock cable it sounds a bit slow, but that changes a lot after recabling and equalizing, which increases resolution to quasi-electrostatic level. The «quasi» may even be a benefit, since it renounces the typical stator reflections responsible for the etherealism electrostats are known for.
 
So to each his and her own! Do you still have access to a pair of SR-207? I'm asking because I had the suspicion that your memory could have transfigured its sound quality to unrealistic levels – especially considering the entry-level amp you were using with it.

 
Had this happen to me with some headphones - was in a good mood when using a headphone - for example AKG K550 and Ath a700x. When tested them a second time, I didn't really feel the same way about them anymore... 

 

[Music Alchemist]

  Do you know any closed back headphone that sounds open or has a lot of soundstage? I'm pretty curious about this 

 
The TH900 does. I know you're waiting for my impressions. I plan on putting them all in one place, so I'll link you to the post later.

 

[JaZZ]

  Anyway, impact (actual macrodynamic impact; think brutal death metal drums being reproduced accurately) is important to me, so the Abyss and HE6 (both of which I have heard) appeal to me a lot more.

 
I wouldn't be satisfied if my headphones couldn't do that – actually that's what I understand by realistic instrument timbres in a wider sense, since I don't just listen to classical or acoustic music. Both the HD 800 and the HE1000 (modified, equalized) leave no wishes in this regard. It's just a matter of bass extension/quantity/amplitude response minus harmonic distortion (you may want to compare HD 800 and Abyss figures on Inner Fidelity). You can read good things about the HD 800's bass potential in the «(new) HD 800» thread, e.g. from johnjen or Yoga, in the context of SonarWorks and equalizing.
 
The time you've had with your HD 800 was much too short to adequately explore its (bass) capabilities with equalizing. Maybe your obvious impatience

and restlessness is a byproduct of your age...

 

[JaZZ]

  Do you know any closed back headphone that sounds open or has a lot of soundstage? I'm pretty curious about this 

 
Unfortunately no – it's long ago that I have listened and occupied myself with closed headphones. But I've read good things about the Audioquest NightOwl or the Mr.Speakers Ether Flow C (I believe from Relic – harmonic distortion is a bit high, though).
 

 

  Do you know any closed back headphone that sounds open or has a lot of soundstage? I'm pretty curious about this 

 
The TH900 does. I know you're waiting for my impressions. I plan on putting them all in one place, so I'll link you to the post later.

 
What about the THX00? On paper it looks clearly better.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  I wouldn't be satisfied if my headphones couldn't do that – actually that's what I understand by realistic instrument timbres in a wider sense, since I don't just listen to classical or acoustic music. Both the HD 800 and the HE1000 (modified, equalized) leave no wishes in this regard. It's just a matter of bass extension/quantity/amplitude response minus harmonic distortion (you may want to compare HD 800 and Abyss figures on Inner Fidelity). You can read good things about the HD 800's bass potential in the «(new) HD 800» thread, e.g. from johnjen or Yoga, in the context of SonarWorks and equalizing.
 
The time you've had with your HD 800 was much too short to adequately explore its (bass) capabilities with equalizing. Maybe your obvious impatience

and restlessness is a byproduct of your age...

 
Just to confirm, are you saying that you have experience with what brutal death metal drums and the like sound like, how hard they hit, and so on...and that your modified/equalized HD 800 and HE1000 hit just as hard? Because you would feel actual impact against your head, which is not something that is common with headphones.
 
What leaves no wishes for you may sound totally limp to me.
 
Quite a few people (general consensus) feel that the Abyss and HE6 have much more impact than those two headphones. (But this is typically without mods/EQ.)
 
All I needed was a few hours of equalizing to try everything I could think of when it comes to bass boosts. (I equalized it for days on end and owned it much longer.)
 

What about the TH00? On paper it looks clearly better.

 
The TH900 is the only Fostex that I have heard.
 
Measurements don't tell you much about how a headphone actually sounds. I learned that the hard way. Texture, articulation, soundstage, impact, etc...I have no way of knowing about stuff like that until I listen. Having low distortion does not give you impact. There are plenty of low distortion headphones that have weak impact. Bass extension and quantity is also separate from impact. There are plenty of headphones with sufficient or excessive bass quantity that don't hit very hard at all.
 
And, as we all know, impact involves much more than just bass, especially when it comes to higher frequencies like snare drums.

 

[JaZZ]

 

  I wouldn't be satisfied if my headphones couldn't do that – actually that's what I understand by realistic instrument timbres in a wider sense, since I don't just listen to classical or acoustic music. Both the HD 800 and the HE1000 (modified, equalized) leave no wishes in this regard. It's just a matter of bass extension/quantity/amplitude response minus harmonic distortion (you may want to compare HD 800 and Abyss figures on Inner Fidelity). You can read good things about the HD 800's bass potential in the «(new) HD 800» thread, e.g. from johnjen or Yoga, in the context of SonarWorks and equalizing.
 
The time you've had with your HD 800 was much too short to adequately explore its (bass) capabilities with equalizing. Maybe your obvious impatience

and restlessness is a byproduct of your age...

 
Just to confirm, are you saying that you have experience with what brutal death metal drums and the like sound like, how hard they hit, and so on...and that your modified/equalized HD 800 and HE1000 hit just as hard? Because you would feel actual impact against your head, which is not something that is common with headphones.
 
What leaves no wishes for you may sound totally limp to me.
 
Quite a few people (general consensus) feel that the Abyss and HE6 have much more impact than those two headphones. (But this is typically without mods/EQ.)
 
All I needed was a few hours of equalizing to try everything I could think of when it comes to bass boosts. (I equalized it for days on end and owned it much longer.)
 

What about the TH00? On paper it looks clearly better.

 
The TH900 is the only Fostex that I have heard.
 
Measurements don't tell you much about how a headphone actually sounds. I learned that the hard way. Texture, articulation, soundstage, impact, etc...I have no way of knowing about stuff like that until I listen. Having low distortion does not give you impact. There are plenty of low distortion headphones that have weak impact. Bass extension and quantity is also separate from impact. There are plenty of headphones with sufficient or excessive bass quantity that don't hit very hard at all.

 
Impact is intensity. As long as the headphone doesn't distort at the desired intensity at the corresponding frequency, you get all the impact you want. A limitation of dynamics inevitably would come with harmonic distortion. I don't know what impact you need, but for the music I listen to (death metal doesn't belong to it, but some progressive metal and DnB), all of my four main headphones deliver realistic impact. They're equalized for realism, not maximum bass quantity, though. The Abyss would most likely overshoot the mark for me, as it shows a distinct accentuation of the range between 25 and 50 Hz (I even have to tame the bass for my HE1000). The TH900 is out of question with its broad bass hump up to 10 dB above midrange level.
 
Oh, by the way: Real physical impact is a privilege of closed headphones. Since they compress and decompress the enclosed air volume between driver and head, making you feel the air-pressure changes on your skin and even your skull.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  Impact is intensity. As long as the headphone doesn't distort at the desired intensity at the corresponding frequency, you get all the impact you want. A limitation of dynamics inevitably would come with harmonic distortion. I don't know what impact you need, but for the music I listen to (death metal doesn't belong to it, but some progressive metal and DnB), all of my four main headphones deliver realistic impact. They're equalized for realism, not maximum bass quantity, though. The Abyss would most likely overshoot the mark for me, as it shows a distinct accentuation of the range between 25 and 50 Hz (I even have to tame the bass for my HE1000). The TH900 is out of question with its broad bass hump up to 10 dB above midrange level.

 
Well, when I heard the Abyss, HE6, HE1000, and HD 800 on the 430HAD, they had almost zero impact whatsoever. Same goes for the HD 800 on the Mojo. I'm guessing "realistic impact" for you would feel like "not even impact in the first place" for me. And I guess I might have to use a more exotic amp to get the type of impact I want. (Many Abyss and HE6 owners say that you need certain speaker amps to get that.)
 
Turning up the volume and not having distortion is not impact. Impact is explosive power that you feel. I want to jump up in shock because I can't believe how hard it hits and how realistic it sounds, like I'm standing next to the performers, or at least as much as possible in the context of headphones. (My definition of impact seems to be different from some. Some describe impact in relation to soft sounds like pianos, but for me, that's just microdynamic snap and has nothing to do with impact.)
 
I want to emphasize that bass impact is only one aspect of impact. I care more about upper frequency impact, like feeling drum hits.
 
Snare drums in real life can hit so hard that you need to wear ear plugs to prevent hearing damage. Headphones tend not to hit hard like that.
 
Look at these TH900 measurements. The bass is only boosted by a few decibels. (I know the InnerFidelity measurements are slightly different.)
 
http://en.goldenears.net/17034
 
Driven from the Chord Mojo (or Schiit Fulla) and without EQ, the TH900 sounds very gentle and has weak impact, mainly due to the biocellulose drivers. But if you boost the bass to extreme levels, that changes. It's ranked #2 in the extreme bass thread because it has such strong bass impact when you boost the bass like that. As for upper frequencies, it's weaker than average when it comes to impact.

 

[Dobrescu George]

   
Unfortunately no – it's long ago that I have listened and occupied myself with closed headphones. But I've read good things about the Audioquest NightOwl or the Mr.Speakers Ether Flow C (I believe from Relic – harmonic distortion is a bit high, though).
 
 
What about the THX00? On paper it looks clearly better.

 
I only tested night hawk and it was one of the worst headphones I had ever tried.... The sound was thick, no details, textures smeared and treble was practically non existent. There wasn't a sign of it trying to do any ADSR or PRaT, even tho it was comfortable and really really nice to wear. 
 
All in all, the lack of treble was not remediable by EQ, they had a massive rolloff, and were impossible to enjoy. 
 
the other 90% of people who heard them liked them so I'm kinda like one of those HD800 fans who wants that HD800 sound with sparkly treble, but the treble I really want would be a 5% toned down ie800 

 
That was my experience with Night Hawk, I had not heard the owl, and I pray they don't have the same signature 

 
 
EDIT::: Ether Flow C might be awesome, I heard good things about it as well - but no distributor in Romania makes it hard to acquire one on good return if you don't like it terms.

 

[Dobrescu George]

   
Well, when I heard the Abyss, HE6, HE1000, and HD 800 on the 430HAD, they had almost zero impact whatsoever. Same goes for the HD 800 on the Mojo. I'm guessing "realistic impact" for you would feel like "not even impact in the first place" for me. And I guess I might have to use a more exotic amp to get the type of impact I want. (Many Abyss and HE6 owners say that you need certain speaker amps to get that.)
 
Turning up the volume and not having distortion is not impact. Impact is explosive power that you feel. I want to jump up in shock because I can't believe how hard it hits and how realistic it sounds, like I'm standing next to the performers, or at least as much as possible in the context of headphones. (My definition of impact seems to be different from some. Some describe impact in relation to soft sounds like pianos, but for me, that's just microdynamic snap and has nothing to do with impact.)
 
I want to emphasize that bass impact is only one aspect of impact. I care more about upper frequency impact, like feeling drum hits.
 
Snare drums in real life can hit so hard that you need to wear ear plugs to prevent hearing damage. Headphones tend not to hit hard like that.

 
Cymbals hit hard enough for you to need ear plugs. 
 
In fact, real life cymbals hit so hard that you would probably feel pain if near one in real life - I played the drums in my really early youth. 
 
Some headphones leave their factory with zero treble, like a serious roll off and are loved because most people don't like treble, but for someone like me, those just won't cut it... 

 

[Music Alchemist]

  I only tested night hawk and it was one of the worst headphones I had ever tried.... The sound was thick, no details, textures smeared and treble was practically non existent. There wasn't a sign of it trying to do any ADSR or PRaT, even tho it was comfortable and really really nice to wear. 
 
All in all, the lack of treble was not remediable by EQ, they had a massive rolloff, and were impossible to enjoy. 

 
I owned the NightHawk. The treble was actually bright in some spots. It was easy to hear in frequency sweeps as well. What's dark about it is the upper midrange. (2 to 4 kHz.) Some people confuse this with treble. And the very emphasized bass makes it even warmer/darker. But it wasn't hard for me to equalize it to sound balanced. My problem with it is that it's far too soft and smooth regardless of EQ. I suspect all biocellulose drivers are like this.
 
http://goldenears.net/board/GR_Headphones/5772639

 

[Dobrescu George]

   
I owned the NightHawk. The treble was actually bright in some spots. It was easy to hear in frequency sweeps as well. What's dark about it is the upper midrange. (2 to 4 kHz.) Some people confuse this with treble. And the very emphasized bass makes it even warmer/darker. But it wasn't hard for me to equalize it to sound balanced. My problem with it is that it's far too soft and smooth regardless of EQ. I suspect all biocellulose drivers are like this.
 
http://goldenears.net/board/GR_Headphones/5772639

I tried equalising it, but it still was very very smooth.
 
I generally enjoy that midrange dip, for example on ie800 
 
http://en.goldenears.net/20925
 
But with NightHawk, it felt terribly smooth

The bass relative to it all might also be a part of the problem, especially the midrange bass.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  I tried equalising it, but it still was very very smooth.
 
I generally enjoy that midrange dip, for example on ie800 
 
http://en.goldenears.net/20925
 
But with NightHawk, it felt terribly smooth

The bass relative to it all might also be a part of the problem, especially the midrange bass.

 
The texture is smooth, but the treble can be very bright and splashy with some recordings. You need to listen to tons of music to hear what a headphone is really like.