After a considerable burn-in time on the Vali 2++ for both tubes (the stock 6N3P and the GE JAN 5670W), I can say both are excellent and satisfying to me. Sonically, to my ears, they seem remarkably similar. Although, I do think the stock 6N3P tube sounds very slightly more "tubey."
Should I go for the Western Electric 396A or does it greatly surpass the diminishing returns threshold at the current Tube Depot price of $179.00?
WE 396A is an example of diminishing returns vis-a-vis GE JAN 5670W - but nonetheless improvements / returns, which are quite noticeable. Only you can decide whether the sonic increments are worth the price. [Of WE 396A, I am a happy user in Woo Audio WA3; @Luckyleo is a happy user in Vali 2.]
WE 396A is an example of diminishing returns vis-a-vis GE JAN 5670E - but nonetheless improvements / returns, which are quite noticeable. Only you can decide whether the sonic increments are worth the price. [Of WE 396A, I am a happy user in Woo Audio WA3; @Luckyleo is a happy user in Vali 2.]
Thanks for this. I think it would be smart of me and my pocketbook to enjoy the music with what I have for now. Paying more for a tube than the cost of the amp doesn't go down easy. The challenge is self discipline and controlling the inevitable itch!
Besides, a $179.00 tube will cost me $358.00 in the end because my wife will always match my expenditures.
I know there are headphone forums here, but my question is about the Vali. I’ve got two of them and a bunch of tubes. I use them with amplifiers and speakers. But I’m thinking about a set of headphones. I don’t want to spend $$$ on phones for a $149 preamp. What phones make sense with a Vali? I know nearly nothing about headphones.
Thanks for this. I think it would be smart of me and my pocketbook to enjoy the music with what I have for now. Paying more for a tube than the cost of the amp doesn't go down easy. The challenge is self discipline and controlling the inevitable itch!
Besides, a $179.00 tube will cost me $358.00 in the end because my wife will always match my expenditures.**
After a considerable burn-in time on the Vali 2++ for both tubes (the stock 6N3P and the GE JAN 5670W), I can say both are excellent and satisfying to me. Sonically, to my ears, they seem remarkably similar. Although, I do think the stock 6N3P tube sounds very slightly more "tubey."
Should I go for the Western Electric 396A or does it greatly surpass the diminishing returns threshold at the current Tube Depot price of $179.00?
Yes... quite diminished. Unique sound... however, there's quite a few more cheaper 5670/2C51 options to explore before you sell the Vali to finance the tube.
Suggest looking for:
1960s Reflector 6N3Ps - usually quite cheap - one of the more balanced 5670s with good detail.
RCA Command 5670 - almost as warm as a WE 396A, but with more detail and half the cost.
Bendix 2C51 - very detailed - leaner tonality than the above. Sometimes can be found under $30
Tesla 6cc42 pinched waist - one of the better 5670s some say. Better than 396A. Only you, your ears and wallet can decide. Difficult to find a decent priced NOS one.
Preferences: I listen to 1960’s and 1970’s rock, 1960 and earlier popular jazz (Basie, Sinatra, Ellington, Goodman), country, traditional Irish. I don’t need stunning bass, but I like clear vocals, distinct instruments, good placement of instruments. My speakers are Klipsch Heresy for the most part. Amps are a Schiit Vidar or a 1960’s Magnavox that has mostly original tubes, but all new capacitors. I have tried a lot of tubes in the Valis (both 2+). My favorites are a Sylvania and an RCA 6SN7’s. But seriously most tubes have pleased me. Price range? What does $150-$200 buy me? I’ll usually use speakers so I don’t want to drop a lot on headphones. Is that price range even reasonable? I’m open to arguments. Since I own two Vali’s I could build a headphone only bedroom system.
My set up is a Vali 2++, Loki Mini and a Modi Multibit 2. That makes my Sennheiser HD6XX's sound great. I recently picked up a pair of Grado SR225x's and I can't get enough of them. A couple of ideas for you.
Yes... quite diminished. Unique sound... however, there's quite a few more cheaper 5670/2C51 options to explore before you sell the Vali to finance the tube.
Suggest looking for:
1960s Reflector 6N3Ps - usually quite cheap - one of the more balanced 5670s with good detail.
RCA Command 5670 - almost as warm as a WE 396A, but with more detail and half the cost.
Bendix 2C51 - very detailed - leaner tonality than the above. Sometimes can be found under $30
Tesla 6cc42 pinched waist - one of the better 5670s some say. Better than 396A. Only you, your ears and wallet can decide. Difficult to find a decent priced NOS one.
I decided to get a 6SN7 tube for the Vali 2++ and went with the 6SN7 GTB tube. I'm using a Garage1217 adapter with a 9 pin socket saver from TubeDepot. The adapter from Garage1217 is very nice quality. I recommend it to anyone that is looking for an adapater.
The only negative thing that I noticed is that when I switched the amp to high gain, I got a noise floor with this tube. However, I can't really hear it when I'm playing something. I can only hear it when nothing is playing. It happens no matter how low I have the volume in high gain. I didn't get any noise floor at all on high gain with the stock tube. I do use Grados, so I guess it really doesn't matter since you don't need to use high gain with them. (If anyone knows why I'm getting a noise floor on high gain with this tube and none on the stock one, let me know). I don't think it would be because of the DAC I'm using. Maybe the tube just has more noise floor than the stock one when used on high gain with low impedance headphones? These tubes do require more power than the stock tube. If you have headphones that are harder to drive, I would think that there wouldn't be any noise floor at high gain when using this tube.
I decided to get a 6SN7 tube for the Vali 2++ and went with the 6SN7 GTB tube. I'm using a Garage1217 adapter with a 9 pin socket saver from TubeDepot. The adapter from Garage1217 is very nice quality. I recommend it to anyone that is looking for an adapater.
As far as the tube goes, I find it to be a subtle improvement over the tube that comes with the Vali 2++. I find the 6SN7 GTB to have very good depth. That seemed to be missing in the stock tube. Songs sound a bit more layered. The mids are on the brighter side that extended very well on top end. The low end texture is great. Because of this, I find the tube to sound the best when it comes to anything with string instruments and vocals.
The only negative thing that I noticed is that when I switched the amp to high gain, I got a noise floor with this tube. However, I can't really hear it when I'm playing something. I can only hear it when nothing is playing. It happens no matter how low I have the volume in high gain. I didn't get any noise floor at all on high gain with the stock tube. I do use Grados, so I guess it really doesn't matter since you don't need to use high gain with them. (If anyone knows why I'm getting a noise floor on high gain with this tube and none on the stock one, let me know). I don't think it would be because of the DAC I'm using. Maybe the tube just has more noise floor than the stock one when used on high gain with low impedance headphones? These tubes do require more power than the stock tube. If you have headphones that are harder to drive, I would think that there wouldn't be any noise floor at high gain when using this tube.
I definitely do recommend this tube. If you liked the stock tube sound but are looking for a somewhat brighter sound signature that isn't overly bright with good depth, then you will most likely really enjoy it.
I'm not an expert, I just play one on the internet, but I think this is how it works…
High and low gain is determined by the amount of negative feedback the circuit uses. High gain uses a lower amount of negative feedback, which allows higher output - along with more of that good distortion, at the expense of a higher noise floor. Low gain increases the negative feedback which lowers the noise floor, but also lowers the good distortion. This would be why folks claim that the Vali2 sound "tubier" on high gain.
That said, your experience is probably typical. I know any one of my tubes will be noisier on high gain, and using a higher sensitivity headphone (or IEMs) will exacerbate the situation. Noise also will depend on the tubes themselves, some will just be noisier than others
I'm not an expert, I just play one on the internet, but I think this is how it works…
High and low gain is determined by the amount of negative feedback the circuit uses. High gain uses a lower amount of negative feedback, which allows higher output - along with more of that good distortion, at the expense of a higher noise floor. Low gain increases the negative feedback which lowers the noise floor, but also lowers the good distortion. This would be why folks claim that the Vali2 sound "tubier" on high gain.
That said, your experience is probably typical. I know any one of my tubes will be noisier on high gain, and using a higher sensitivity headphone (or IEMs) will exacerbate the situation. Noise also will depend on the tubes themselves, some will just be noisier than others
Yeah, the reason why I tried using high gain was because people claimed that you will get more of a tubey sound since low gain uses a negative feedback. Honestly, I didn't really notice a huge difference when I switched back and forth between high and low gain. Maybe I noticed a very slight difference when using high gain to get more tube sound. When I mean slight difference, I mean I had really pay attention to notice a difference. Honestly it's probably placebo. The reason definitely could be because some tubes are just more noisy than others like you mentioned. And also having low impedance headphones on top of that. Not a big deal though since it only seems to happen in high gain. But it is still kinda weird how the stock tube is absolutely quiet in high gain and this one has a noise floor when using the same headphones.
Yeah, the reason why I tried using high gain was because people claimed that you will get more of a tubey sound since low gain uses a negative feedback. Honestly, I didn't really notice a huge difference when I switched back and forth between high and low gain. Maybe I noticed a very slight difference when using high gain to get more tube sound. When I mean slight difference, I mean I had really pay attention to notice a difference. Honestly it's probably placebo. The reason definitely could be because some tubes are just more noisy than others like you mentioned. And also having low impedance headphones on top of that. Not a big deal though since it only seems to happen in high gain. But it is still kinda weird how the stock tube is absolutely quiet in high gain and this one has a noise floor when using the same headphones.
Another possibility is from double-daptering. My 6SN7 experience has been that they seem to be noisier too. I actually can't run mine topless to check this theory since my adapter is a 12AU7 to 6SN7 - I use a 6DJ8 to 12AU7 adapter instead of a socket saver.
Another possibility is from double-daptering. My 6SN7 experience has been that they seem to be noisier too. I actually can't run mine topless to check this theory since my adapter is a 12AU7 to 6SN7 - I use a 6DJ8 to 12AU7 adapter instead of a socket saver.
Definitely could be a reason. Or it could be the tube being more noisy than the stock one with low impedance headphones. You can for sure hear a hum when nothing is playing on high gain. It will sometimes almost have a ringing like sound that lasts only for a few seconds. However, the background hum isn't noticeable on high gain when music is playing most of the time so I guess it doesn't really matter too much.
I do have an off topic question. If I used something like an Aune T1 Mk2 as a dac for the Vali 2++, would it bypass the sound of whatever tube is in the Vali in favor of the tube that's in the T1? Or would you get tube sound from both units? If you get tube sound from both units used together, it might be fun to try the T1 as a dac for the Vali since the tube corresponds to the dac part of the unit. Just not sure if this would bypass whatever tube is in the Vali completely.
Not to be the contrarian... which I do relish... I've triple 'dapted without noise issues with different tubes and amps. In my extensive excessive experience, assuming the adapters are well made, noise issues are more about tube luck of the roll.
Some tubes just seem to be troublemakers - which I appreciate - don't like it, but sometimes there's a sweet signal just above the noise and hum.
WE 396A is an example of diminishing returns vis-a-vis GE JAN 5670W - but nonetheless improvements / returns, which are quite noticeable. Only you can decide whether the sonic increments are worth the price. [Of WE 396A, I am a happy user in Woo Audio WA3; @Luckyleo is a happy user in Vali 2.]
I did replace the stock tube with a GE JAN 5670W and it is better. I found the WE 396A new on Ebay for $70 plus $12.55 shipping. That's reasonably priced compared to $179.95 at Tube Depot. So that gets one to thinking..... Maybe one night after a couple of beers. Lol.
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