[OctavianH]

Would have been cool if someone else could experience the same amp Sigh.

I think that many of Tomas amps were somehow unique. Even the builds without the tube rolling purpose, because he adapted some of them to different tube types.

 

[UntilThen]

I think that many of Tomas amps were somehow unique. Even the builds without the tube rolling purpose, because he adapted some of them to different tube types.

They are all unique.

 

[baronbeehive]

Heh, I did pay a pretty penny for the amp though I think Tomas was still a good deal. The different combinations and settings are a bit bewildering I’ll admit. It’s easy to give up on tweaking after a certain point because I have accumulated a lot of really good sounding combos. Why spend more time with bad sound? Lol.

My thing is that my impressions with tube combos are unique. So many are happy to say that tube x has a specific sound. While that might make sense with people with the same amp and using similar headphones (especially planars) nobody on this site is using output tubes in ultralinear push pull into my speakers lol. I’m happy to record my journey but I’m not it’s going to help anyone else.

Would have been cool if someone else could experience the same amp Sigh.

Yes, that's a great shame, that can no longer happen.

That's great that you have so many choices with your sound, but I've reached the point where I'm happy with the sound on my amp, even though I have limited options. Probably to do with all the angst with modding mine, I don't want to do that any more .

I hung around here because I was interested in Sonic's amps, especially the Telemachus, but would probably not have acquired one in the end if I'm honest.

It would be difficult to see how Sonic's amps could be bettered, although there are always new developments. There was a guy on the Supermods thread that had many advanced ideas, but whereas Sonic implemented his ideas, this guy didn't manage that I don't think. AFAIK he did get around to producing prototypes but then ran out of money so we might never know.

I think that many of Tomas amps were somehow unique. Even the builds without the tube rolling purpose, because he adapted some of them to different tube types.

I think you're right. AFAIK he was the only one to implement the the new ideas, they had been discussed on DIY forums for a while but I don't think anyone had actually tried those ideas, especially all of them at once in a specific build. And the way he allowed all of those requests for different tube types in one build, that must have been very challenging for him, and he didn't complain LOL.

 

[OctavianH]

I hung around here because I was interested in Sonic's amps, especially the Telemachus, but would probably not have acquired one in the end if I'm honest.

Why Telemachus?

 

[baronbeehive]

Why Telemachus?

Well, before the Telemachus came about I was interested in how the new ideas that Sonic implemented sounded, like on your amp for example. After that when he put forward the Telemachus idea, old classic tube types but with the new technology I felt that it would be a very interesting combination. I had always dismissed the idea of the tube types like on Telemachus as being too sweet sounding, possibly not realistic, and being a tad slow, but with the new technology that could all change, and I think Sonic also felt the same about that. I know he did say that Telemachus was the best amp he had built.

 

[Isaacc7]

Well, before the Telemachus came about I was interested in how the new ideas that Sonic implemented sounded, like on your amp for example. After that when he put forward the Telemachus idea, old classic tube types but with the new technology I felt that it would be a very interesting combination. I had always dismissed the idea of the tube types like on Telemachus as being too sweet sounding, possibly not realistic, and being a tad slow, but with the new technology that could all change, and I think Sonic also felt the same about that. I know he did say that Telemachus was the best amp he had built.

The 300b is both a victim and a legend because of its history. Western Electric needed to amplify voices for its telephone service. Going through a series of repeater amplifiers meant it was really important to keep the distortion as low as possible. Later on they used the 300b for the new technological wonder of talking pictures.

What I have patched together over the years is this; driving the stable, resistive loads of telephone lines is very different than driving the reactive load of a loudspeaker. At the time there were far fewer options for driving the 300b and transformer technology for audio was in its infancy. The resulting sound from those WE amps are what you’d call romantic, warm, lots of “bloom” etc. Pairing them with the enormous WE horn speakers for theaters worked pretty well.

Now we have far better drivers for the 300b. The tubes we can use (pentodes! Shock and dismay!) as well as things like mosfet followers (like Tomas used in Telemuchas) and Tubelab’s power drive combined with modern SE transformers can give us back the linearity and accuracy the 300b was designed for. Nowadays you can pick what kind of sound you want, old fashioned bloom or accurate. Well, tube accurate lol. And now with planar headphones you can get back those resistive loads as well although dynamic headphones really aren’t all that difficult to drive. The original WE engineers would be really impressed with what could be done with the 300b now. Of course they would probably wonder why we didn’t just use mosfets for everything lol.

 

[baronbeehive]

The 300b is both a victim and a legend because of its history. Western Electric needed to amplify voices for its telephone service. Going through a series of repeater amplifiers meant it was really important to keep the distortion as low as possible. Later on they used the 300b for the new technological wonder of talking pictures.

What I have patched together over the years is this; driving the stable, resistive loads of telephone lines is very different than driving the reactive load of a loudspeaker. At the time there were far fewer options for driving the 300b and transformer technology for audio was in its infancy. The resulting sound from those WE amps are what you’d call romantic, warm, lots of “bloom” etc. Pairing them with the enormous WE horn speakers for theaters worked pretty well.

Now we have far better drivers for the 300b. The tubes we can use (pentodes! Shock and dismay!) as well as things like mosfet followers (like Tomas used in Telemuchas) and Tubelab’s power drive combined with modern SE transformers can give us back the linearity and accuracy the 300b was designed for. Nowadays you can pick what kind of sound you want, old fashioned bloom or accurate. Well, tube accurate lol. And now with planar headphones you can get back those resistive loads as well although dynamic headphones really aren’t all that difficult to drive. The original WE engineers would be really impressed with what could be done with the 300b now. Of course they would probably wonder why we didn’t just use mosfets for everything lol.

Yep . Some say tubes are accurate for realistic reproduction, live sound, real distortion - the marshall guitar amps for example, harmonics, realistic decay, realistic speed for music reproduction, not pinpoint like SS, linear voltage swings, etc etc. Of course with all the gizmos at their disposal now SS can reproduce accurately as well, I just prefer tubes, probably always will .

 

[OctavianH]

I think much more simple and have less electrical know how than many here. I am not smart but persistent. LOL I tried hundreds of tubes and combined almost anything with anything and have always chosen flexibility instead of a well known path, only to have the chance to discover more. What I can say is that I understood what some call "house sound" or the effect of gain to the signature. Much less than the ones who understand from a datasheet how a tube would sound or the ones who can decide if a tube type will be success based on the amplifier design. All I have heard is triode strapped. But I can say one thing, I see a 300B amp only as a pride trophy near a much more flexible one, not a daily listening choice. Even if that one is the best for a specific choice of records, it cannot match what you can do playing with gain and flavours and compensating what specific records miss. And let's keep in mind the investment you need for that one, not only for the amp but for the tubes. Well, I might buy one when I am done with the rest. Not sure, because I do not quite like those over romantic and smooth types of tubes. I like lifelike, energetic and natural timbre. And natural timbre from time to time involves some harshness. Of course, the one we call good. So for me Telemachus was only a curiosity, but a Citadel with tube rolling was definitely a choice. I was in discussions with Tomas for that one but of course, things were not finalized and never will be. Why Citadel? Because it was the oposite of Eternity and still had the modern design. A fully balanced design wired for 2 x 6SL7 and 4 x 6V6 was the plan in my case.

Later edit:

My tube journey:

 

[baronbeehive]

I think much more simple and have less electrical know how than many here. I am not smart but persistent. LOL I tried hundreds of tubes and combined almost anything with anything and have always chosen flexibility instead of a well known path, only to have the chance to discover more. What I can say is that I understood what some call "house sound" or the effect of gain to the signature. Much less than the ones who understand from a datasheet how a tube would sound or the ones who can decide if a tube type will be success based on the amplifier design. All I have heard is triode strapped. But I can say one thing, I see a 300B amp only as a pride trophy near a much more flexible one, not a daily listening choice. Even if that one is the best for a specific choice of records, it cannot match what you can do playing with gain and flavours and compensating what specific records miss. And let's keep in mind the investment you need for that one, not only for the amp but for the tubes. Well, I might buy one when I am done with the rest. Not sure, because I do not quite like those over romantic and smooth types of tubes. I like lifelike, energetic and natural timbre. And natural timbre from time to time involves some harshness. Of course, the one we call good. So for me Telemachus was only a curiosity, but a Citadel with tube rolling was definitely a choice. I was in discussions with Tomas for that one but of course, things were not finalized and never will be. Why Citadel? Because it was the oposite of Eternity and still had the modern design. A fully balanced design wired for 2 x 6SL7 and 4 x 6V6 was the plan in my case.

Later edit:

My tube journey:

Haha .

Absolutely, agree 100%. That's exactly why I always steered clear of 300B. But curious how Sonic managed to put one together in Telemachus though.

My own journey began with the Supermods thread, some guys together with one aim to perfect the LD, as much as possibly anyway, and that lead to some interesting parts along the way. I knew nothing at the start but we fed off each other and then Sonic left us behind! But I managed to pick some things up along the way. And that's where it all ended, I'm not interested in investing the time and effort to build a complete amp.

TBH I think I was more interested in your amp than the others, and not really interested in Citadel as being probably too dry sounding... not enough tubes LOL.

Edit: I think it was in the amp build thread where Sonic said that there wasn't much difference between Oblivion and Citadel, just slightly cleaner sound due to the fully balanced design.

 

[bcowen]

Haha .

Absolutely, agree 100%. That's exactly why I always steered clear of 300B. But curious how Sonic managed to put one together in Telemachus though.

My own journey began with the Supermods thread, some guys together with one aim to perfect the LD, as much as possibly anyway, and that lead to some interesting parts along the way. I knew nothing at the start but we fed off each other and then Sonic left us behind! But I managed to pick some things up along the way. And that's where it all ended, I'm not interested in investing the time and effort to build a complete amp.

TBH I think I was more interested in your amp than the others, and not really interested in Citadel as being probably too dry sounding... not enough tubes LOL.

Edit: I think it was in the amp build thread where Sonic said that there wasn't much difference between Oblivion and Citadel, just slightly cleaner sound due to the fully balanced design.

It's interesting to me how the 300B can be such a chameleon, and more so than most other tubes. I've heard quite a number of 300B based amps in my day (40+ maybe?) and the sound has varied from one extreme (sluggish, too warm, syrupy) to the other (fast, almost clinical, more like SS than a tube....really) and lots of in between. And as most of the listening to these amps has been with WE tubes, it's not the tubes making the difference, it's the circuit and the design of the amp. Then we get to the 300BXLS tube that I have in my Jota amp. Doesn't sound like a WE or even close. Carries on with the strengths of the 300B, but improves significantly on the weaknesses. I guess it could be argued that it's actually not a 300B as the specs are significantly different, but it still looks, smells and costs like a 300B. The only generalization that *I* can make from my experience with 300B's is that I've yet to hear a design that totally nails the bass. Bass can be quite good and very "real" sounding, but I've not heard one yet that gets the slam and definition to the same degree that many pentodes can.

 

[senseitedj]

I think much more simple and have less electrical know how than many here. I am not smart but persistent. LOL I tried hundreds of tubes and combined almost anything with anything and have always chosen flexibility instead of a well known path, only to have the chance to discover more. What I can say is that I understood what some call "house sound" or the effect of gain to the signature. Much less than the ones who understand from a datasheet how a tube would sound or the ones who can decide if a tube type will be success based on the amplifier design. All I have heard is triode strapped. But I can say one thing, I see a 300B amp only as a pride trophy near a much more flexible one, not a daily listening choice. Even if that one is the best for a specific choice of records, it cannot match what you can do playing with gain and flavours and compensating what specific records miss. And let's keep in mind the investment you need for that one, not only for the amp but for the tubes. Well, I might buy one when I am done with the rest. Not sure, because I do not quite like those over romantic and smooth types of tubes. I like lifelike, energetic and natural timbre. And natural timbre from time to time involves some harshness. Of course, the one we call good. So for me Telemachus was only a curiosity, but a Citadel with tube rolling was definitely a choice. I was in discussions with Tomas for that one but of course, things were not finalized and never will be. Why Citadel? Because it was the oposite of Eternity and still had the modern design. A fully balanced design wired for 2 x 6SL7 and 4 x 6V6 was the plan in my case.

Later edit:

My tube journey:

You make some strong points there about other amp topologies being more sonically flexible. But people like me who are considered to be more of a casual tube roller might value the more limited tube-rolling choices from typical 300b amps and not feel FOMO of not being able to try everything .

 

[Isaacc7]

I think much more simple and have less electrical know how than many here. I am not smart but persistent. LOL I tried hundreds of tubes and combined almost anything with anything and have always chosen flexibility instead of a well known path, only to have the chance to discover more. What I can say is that I understood what some call "house sound" or the effect of gain to the signature. Much less than the ones who understand from a datasheet how a tube would sound or the ones who can decide if a tube type will be success based on the amplifier design. All I have heard is triode strapped. But I can say one thing, I see a 300B amp only as a pride trophy near a much more flexible one, not a daily listening choice. Even if that one is the best for a specific choice of records, it cannot match what you can do playing with gain and flavours and compensating what specific records miss. And let's keep in mind the investment you need for that one, not only for the amp but for the tubes. Well, I might buy one when I am done with the rest. Not sure, because I do not quite like those over romantic and smooth types of tubes. I like lifelike, energetic and natural timbre. And natural timbre from time to time involves some harshness. Of course, the one we call good. So for me Telemachus was only a curiosity, but a Citadel with tube rolling was definitely a choice. I was in discussions with Tomas for that one but of course, things were not finalized and never will be. Why Citadel? Because it was the oposite of Eternity and still had the modern design. A fully balanced design wired for 2 x 6SL7 and 4 x 6V6 was the plan in my case.

Later edit:

My tube journey:

One of the best systems I ever heard had a push pull 300b amp driving Quad ESL63 speakers. Not for metal obviously but dear lord, what a sound! If I wasn’t an audio/tube hobbyist I could absolutely live forever with a 300b based system. As @bcowen notes they can be used in a ton of different ways and circuits. The warmest I ever heard used the 300b as a driver for a 211 or 845 in the Cary 805 amp Hooked to some big Spendor speakers. Have also heard a single ended one driving some Avantguard horns. Can’t remember who made the amp, could have been another Cary. That was also quite an experience.

Anyway, I would never dismiss the 300b but I do also think that pentodes are the way to go. Don’t think I could ever go back to a system that only sounds one way again.

 

[OctavianH]

You make some strong points there about other amp topologies being more sonically flexible. But people like me who are considered to be more of a casual tube roller might value the more limited tube-rolling choices from typical 300b amps and not feel FOMO of not being able to try everything .

If your musical collection provides you enough enjoyment with one setting you do not need to try them all. In my case, I cannot listen to all of them at the same level of enjoyment only with one setup. So I adapt. Of course, it is very subjective.

 

[baronbeehive]

It's interesting to me how the 300B can be such a chameleon, and more so than most other tubes. I've heard quite a number of 300B based amps in my day (40+ maybe?) and the sound has varied from one extreme (sluggish, too warm, syrupy) to the other (fast, almost clinical, more like SS than a tube....really) and lots of in between. And as most of the listening to these amps has been with WE tubes, it's not the tubes making the difference, it's the circuit and the design of the amp. Then we get to the 300BXLS tube that I have in my Jota amp. Doesn't sound like a WE or even close. Carries on with the strengths of the 300B, but improves significantly on the weaknesses. I guess it could be argued that it's actually not a 300B as the specs are significantly different, but it still looks, smells and costs like a 300B. The only generalization that *I* can make from my experience with 300B's is that I've yet to hear a design that totally nails the bass. Bass can be quite good and very "real" sounding, but I've not heard one yet that gets the slam and definition to the same degree that many pentodes can.

My very first amp, a LDMKIV se If I remember, had very syrupy tubes which, after the initial excitement wore off fairly soon and I never wanted that sound again, I wanted realism more than syrup. But you're right, it's the circuit not the tubes that is important, I think Sonic would have had something to say about that. A given tube will sound very different in a different circuit. That also applies to balanced/unbalanced in fact, no one type is better than the other but the circuit design makes all the difference. This is usually mentioned at the beginning of a thread and then people go about completely forgetting that fact and can't understand why a given tube varies so much. Where that leaves tube reviews I don't know .

Edit: I love the fact you have an upstairs and downstairs setup, how are you fixed for the loo .

 

[triod750]

While circuit might be the main deciding factor it seems as if some circuits can sound very different depending on tubes used. Old School/New School?