[VNandor]

   
We didn't really get into how "possible" it is to produce EDM at high sample rates, given today's hardware.  I've read some posts over at gearslutz.com (posted a link in one of my earlier posts) that show some producers are doing just that.  Not sure if it's 192, but at least 96 kHz.
 

The link discusses a different topic for the most part. Just because some people work at 96k (setting their DAW's sample rate to 96k) it doesn't automatically mean that there will be any frequencies over 22kHz. Typically there won't be any, unless they directly forced their synths to do so, in which case, they would most likely run into the same kind of problems as I did. Maybe they could record some acoustic instruments at 96kHz and then use that in their music but this is again an entirely different case.
 
 
 
"soft synths and dsp/fx plugins often sound much better at higher sample rates - even if the benefit is just less audible aliasing
over sampling plugins help too - try guitar rig with/without the 'high' quality mode on... the difference is huge and pronounced
a final format of 16/44.1 doesn't negate the benefits"
 
This could be a noteworthy post, as this explains how I made my synth to make ultrasonics. First, I chose a signal which had enough frequencies above 22kHz. Normally, these frequencies would alias back below 22kHz which could alter the sound in a very noticeable way. The higher the original frequency were, the lower the aliased frequency would be. So, after applying enough oversampling, none of the strong/loud harmonics were aliased. This alone wouldn't be enough to produce ultrasonic content, because if the DAW's sampling rate was at 44.1kHz, all the high frequencies would be filtered out. So after the oversampling I also had to change that to 192kHz so the frequencies wouldn't get filtered up to ~96kHz.
As you can see, the high frequencies is just a byproduct of oversampling (which is typically being used for anti aliasing not for making high frequencies). Even the post's maker says "the final format of 16/44.1 doesn't negate the benefits."

 

[Dillan]

Hey guys,

In theory would WAV be better than FLAC as FLAC has to be uncompressed first? Not saying the difference has to be audible in reality.. just asking about the computer science behind the two. As I said "in theory". I also realize the processing power needed to decompress a FLAC file is incredibly non stringent.

Just always wondered that.

 

[spruce music]

Hey guys,

In theory would WAV be better than FLAC as FLAC has to be uncompressed first? Not saying the difference has to be audible in reality.. just asking about the computer science behind the two. As I said "in theory". I also realize the processing power needed to decompress a FLAC file is incredibly non stringent.

Just always wondered that.

Complete non-issue.  Generally computers decode FLAC to Wav in RAM and then play it.  This is some audiophoolery you have been infected with here.

 

[Dillan]

Complete non-issue.  Generally computers decode FLAC to Wav in RAM and then play it.  This is some audiophoolery you have been infected with here.

Is it the CPU or the storage device (ram/hard drive) that handles the decompression?

 

[spruce music]

Is it the CPU or the storage device (ram/hard drive) that handles the decompression?

Copy
CPU of course. Most software does the decompression, and stores the result in memory which with most gear takes only a few seconds to complete. So it sits there already in wav format waiting to be played. Which means the activity of the CPU is thus effectively made of no consequence by the time the files actually play. It works the same as if you decide to decode all your flac files to wav and store on the HD. Decompression has occurred prior to playback.

 

[Dillan]

Copy
CPU of course. Most software does the decompression, and stores the result in memory which with most gear takes only a few seconds to complete. So it sits there already in wav format waiting to be played. Which means the activity of the CPU is thus effectively made of no consequence by the time the files actually play. It works the same as if you decide to decode all your flac files to wav and store on the HD. Decompression has occurred prior to playback.

I see

 

[gregorio]

  [1] He did that theoretical experiment to show that synths are not any more limited in dynamic range than acoustic instruments.  Therefore, EDM as a genre is inherently no more limited in dynamic range than other genres. 
[1a] Any limitation of dynamic range in EDM stems from creative choice by the producers in order to generate the intended musical experience. 
 
[2] Never said he addressed all synths.  Never knew any of our discussions had to apply to all synths.
 
[3] As I mentioned earlier, some apparently do believe that using high sample rates helps in processing, anti-aliasing, yielding a better (as defined earlier, since you have a habit of quoting people out of context) sounding final product. https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/927226-top-edm-producers-who-work-high-sample-rates.html
 
[4] I don't see use of "low-fi" processors used in electronic music creation as an explanation or reason for why EDM would have the least to gain from Hi-Res.
 
[5] That's because electronic music isn't recorded, it's created electronically.  There is no recording (capture of sound waves) with electronic music ...

 
1. Pinnahertz already addressed the logical fallacy of this statement.
1a. No it does not! Many "synth" patches have extremely limited dynamic ranges. Then there is also the creative choice of the producer to reduce dynamic range but as Pinnahertz also tried to explain to you, the creative choices of producers are limited by the genre.
 
2. Of course it does ... because if it doesn't then your argument is nonsense! Other music genres employ an acoustic drum kit and/or other acoustic instruments which virtually ALWAYS produce frequencies (significant amounts in the case of a drum kit) which can only be captured with hires sample rates. EDM typically does not employ acoustic drum kits (or any other acoustic instruments) and even if there are some EDM tracks with ultrasonic content, "some" is far less than the "virtually always" of just about all other music genres!! EDM therefore benefits from "hires" sample rates "far less" than other genres. Just to be clear, I'm talking about "benefit" in terms of accuracy rather than in terms of audibility.
 
3. Gearslutz is a forum used by highly experienced pros, complete noobs and everyone in between. Modern (computer based) electronic music requires nothing more than a laptop and the download and installation of a bunch of free/cheap software. There are countless thousands of people out there who after installing that software spend a few hours/days/weeks playing around with it and then announce to the world that they're music producers or audio engineers. If you're going to reference material from forums, you need to make sure you're not referencing ignorant nonsense from noobs! Just to be clear, there maybe some audible advantages to locally oversampling some soft synths (and other processors) but typically no benefit to working at or distributing "hires".
 
4. Huh? Are you really saying that you don't see how deliberately low-res content would have the least to gain from hires?
 
6. This is patently incorrect! While the creators themselves are only creating electronically, they are virtually always using recorded/captured sound waves in the form of "samples" (in samplers or forming the basis of many/most soft-synths' patches). Furthermore, these samples are typically already highly processed (inc. compressed), which is why many synths/synth patches have restricted dynamic ranges!
 
G

 

[Lex2]

Gregorio, not all EDM are produced using sample-based synths like Nexus (ROM-based) or incorporate high res drum patches dumped out from Sylenth1 or Serum. Neither do all EDM use wavetable synths based on user samples. A lot are produced 100% "electronically" as mentioned by LazyListener. And this includes drum patches based in some form on pure sine waves. I think all they are saying is that if someone wants to produce a synth sound only a dog can hear through very high res speakers then that is entirely possible to do so. And yes, EDM is inherently dynamically limited, as a genre. I would say this is true for mainstream EDM such as house, trance, complextro, etc. But having said that there is a lot of electronic ambient music that does not have the "squash them to hell" approach, created using pure synth patches without inherent dynamic compression, and would probably have as much range as Beethoven's 9th.

 

[gregorio]

[1] Gregorio, not all EDM are produced using sample-based synths like Nexus (ROM-based) or incorporate high res drum patches dumped out from Sylenth1 or Serum. Neither do all EDM use wavetable synths based on user samples. A lot are produced 100% "electronically" as mentioned by LazyListener. And this includes drum patches based in some form on pure sine waves.

[2] But having said that there is a lot of electronic ambient music that does not have the "squash them to hell" approach

 
1. Virtually all of the mainstream EDM I've heard is based on (highly processed) samples, one way or another. I'm sure there probably are examples of EDM tracks which are entirely/purely synthesised, maybe there are even "a lot" of them but they are still the minority/vast minority, which brings us back to point #2 in my previous post!
 
2. In general, all the electronic genres are more compressed than other genres, although EDM is usually the most compressed of them all. I was not referring to other electronic genres though, just EDM.
 
G

 

[pinnahertz]

Gregorio, not all EDM are produced using sample-based synths like Nexus (ROM-based) or incorporate high res drum patches dumped out from Sylenth1 or Serum. Neither do all EDM use wavetable synths based on user samples. A lot are produced 100% "electronically" as mentioned by LazyListener. And this includes drum patches based in some form on pure sine waves. I think all they are saying is that if someone wants to produce a synth sound only a dog can hear through very high res speakers then that is entirely possible to do so. And yes, EDM is inherently dynamically limited, as a genre. I would say this is true for mainstream EDM such as house, trance, complextro, etc. But having said that there is a lot of electronic ambient music that does not have the "squash them to hell" approach, created using pure synth patches without inherent dynamic compression, and would probably have as much range as Beethoven's 9th.

I would like to hear an example of:
 
1. Drum patches based on pure sine waves
2. Electronic ambient music with wide dynamic range.  Equal to Beethoven's 9th if possible.
 
I spend a solid hour this past weekend listening to EDM as a sanity check to see if what we've been saying about it was true.  I heard very little DR, with one exceptional and very weird track.  I heard no significant high frequency content in the top audible octave at all.  If you wanted to demo speakers with really remarkable HF response EDM would be the wrong choice.  
 
But I'm open to auditioning specific examples of both EDM that makes use of the top octave fully, and wide DR electronic music.  Current examples only, please.  Stockhausen did some pretty wide DR electronic music in the 1950s.  No fair citing that.

 

[VNandor]

This is strange. In my experience, edm tends to be annoyingly bright. Maybe I'm just overly sensitive to high frequencies, I don't know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9kA9GYOzHc Example of edm I'd call too treble heavy. If you get a 320kbit version it will make things even worse.
 
 
I'm not sure what you mean by "based on pure sine waves" however I have some examples of synthesized drums if that's what you are looking for.
A single example of an entirely synthesized snare.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5A7oFpmXuls
 
A whole synthesized sample pack (or "preset pack") that includes percussions as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K1SmDD0XTo
 
I'm not really into ambient stuff and edm is brickwalled because it's oriented towards clubs, festivals, etc. Maybe someone else can help here.

 

[StanD]

  I would like to hear an example of:
 
1. Drum patches based on pure sine waves
2. Electronic ambient music with wide dynamic range.  Equal to Beethoven's 9th if possible.
 
I spend a solid hour this past weekend listening to EDM as a sanity check to see if what we've been saying about it was true.  I heard very little DR, with one exceptional and very weird track.  I heard no significant high frequency content in the top audible octave at all.  If you wanted to demo speakers with really remarkable HF response EDM would be the wrong choice.  
 
But I'm open to auditioning specific examples of both EDM that makes use of the top octave fully, and wide DR electronic music.  Current examples only, please.  Stockhausen did some pretty wide DR electronic music in the 1950s.  No fair citing that.

I don't think you'd find any contemporary EDM composers splicing tape or music like Stockhausen making the scene at dance clubs.

 

[Arpiben]

I would like to hear an example of:

1. Drum patches based on pure sine waves
2. Electronic ambient music with wide dynamic range.  Equal to Beethoven's 9th if possible.

I spend a solid hour this past weekend listening to EDM as a sanity check to see if what we've been saying about it was true.  I heard very little DR, with one exceptional and very weird track.  I heard no significant high frequency content in the top audible octave at all.  If you wanted to demo speakers with really remarkable HF response EDM would be the wrong choice.  

But I'm open to auditioning specific examples of both EDM that makes use of the top octave fully, and wide DR electronic music.  Current examples only, please.  Stockhausen did some pretty wide DR electronic music in the 1950s.  No fair citing that.

Not so contemporary with almost same DR as Stockhausen you may try Jean Michel Jarre 80's production ( Oygen/Magnetic Fields/China's concert).
I am afraid it is old fashioned EDM

 

[pinnahertz]

 
I don't think you'd find any contemporary EDM composers splicing tape or music like Stockhausen making the scene at dance clubs.

I dunno...retro is in!

 

[pinnahertz]

Not so contemporary with almost same DR as Stockhausen you may try Jean Michel Jarre 80's production ( Oygen/Magnetic Fields/China's concert).
I am afraid it is old fashioned EDM

Yeah, I own that stuff, original vinyl and digits. The dynamics are certainly there.  Oxegene was 1977, Equinoxe was 1978, so yeah, for an example I was hoping for something less than 20 years old.