[analogsurviver]

   
I can't tell for sure but it appears you are purporting to be a professional recording engineer.  I've heard this amount/level of complete baloney countless times from audiophiles but it's rather shocking to hear it from a pro recording engineer. Let's just look at a few points:
 
You can't hear an isolated sine waves above 14kHz but you can hear sine waves far higher than that, and in fact well beyond even the theoretical mechanical limits of human physiology, providing that those sine waves are accompanied by a plethora of other sine waves (within the audible band) of far greater magnitude?! You're joking right?
 
Your comments about Bruckner, venue acoustics and live performance, musicians/composers, etc., appear to be contradictory and lack some fundamental basic understanding of acoustics + the perception of a live performance. It's for this reason that acoustic ensembles, particularly larger ensembles, are almost always professionally recorded with mic arrays (inc., commonly some spot mics) rather than with a single stereo pair.
 
No, I can't remember ever having had a USB connector fail, which invalidates a whole swath of your argument! One of the great things about digital recording compared to analogue is that the vast majority of the time you just plug it in, switch on and it instantly and consistently provides it's optimal performance. Of course, sometimes digital equipment fails but generally it's at least as reliable as analogue gear (and commonly more so) and has the substantial added advantage of not needing almost constant maintenance (alignment/calibration, etc.) in order to perform optimally. It's simply not even a vaguely close contest, analogue is far more fragile, even more so if going portable!
 
If you were an experienced commercial recording engineer, spouting baloney for marketing reasons, why wouldn't you be avoiding the sound science forum like the plague?! The only alternative I can think of, is someone whole heartedly infected by audiophile insanities "having a go" at recording. Maybe there's another alternative (that I haven't thought of) which can explain the apparently insane/ignorant arguments though?
 
G

Well, you obviously do not know I have chosen DSD recording, which is, of course - digital - as means that most closely approximates analogue. In some ways, it is superior to analogue tape, in some it is (DSD128) still worse.  I certainly agree whatever digital recorder ( that does not rely on pesky USBs...)  is far more robust than any analogue recorder.
 
I did not mention the last friday and saturday I had demo of my own master DSD recordings at our yearly audio show.  You should have seen the sheer number of yaws dropped. Perhaps the most interesting comment came from a close friend who worships Slovenian doyen of audio engineers, Mr. Aco Razbornik - who has each and every credential as a recording engineer one can possibly think of - provided that recording can be done in a studio. That means recording "dirty" musicians.- per my definition, "clean" musicians are those whom we can hear without them to know what electricity is ( OK, if we neglect lighting for them to see sheet music ), whereas "dirty" musicians are those who have to plug in into any kind of amplification/loudspeakers in order to be heard. Please note that I DO like and appreciate "dirty" musicians equally well if not better than "clean" ones - except that is not my thing as a recording engineer. I would only touch "dirties" IF it is played in a truly good hall or in open air, provided that PA is well above average>excellently executed - which is rare and approaching Mission Impossible. I was lucky to have recorded one such gig in binaural 2 or 3 years ago - too bad my binaural mics were not yet quite up to the level they are now, otherwise it would have been a reference recording of a truly great emerging band - Prismojeni profesorji bluesa /  (english version - Wacky Blues Professors https://www.facebook.com/Prismojeni-Profesorji-BluesaWacky-Blues-Professors-889985047768232/?fref=ts who, after playing 250+ live gigs last year in Slovenia, decided to go on "student leave/tour/whatever" to the USA where they are currently playing at various venues, river boats included - don*t  miss to see their show live if you happen to see it advertised in your area!!! Here their first CD  - but remember, they are infinitely better live : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9nwq6RZTR0  Here probably the best compromise between video and SQ they issued on YT : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOxoVxllXSw  One more interesting thing regarding PPB/WBP ; when we went to listen to my recording of theirs to my another friend*s place, they played classical music in their car; question whether this was standard practice got an answer : "Almost exclusively..."
 
That friend of a close friend is no slouch in music - the son of Slavko Avsenik, the famous leader of the Ansambel bratov Avsenik , https://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansambel_bratov_Avsenik -  https://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavko_Avsenik_mlaj%C5%A1i . Furthermore, due to the chain of events, I got to know him personally as a competitor - he has family ties with the members of a certain choir. Due to the previous history with the singers who comprise this relatively newly formed choir (2 years or so, "dropouts" from other choirs I have been working with previously, due mostly to family reasons that once again found the time to follow their musical desires), I have almost been 100% sure I will get to record all their performances. It turned out I have to share it, about 50:50, with him - for "peace in the house" reasons.
 
So, what did Mr. Avsenik say in the conversation what he thinks of me as a recording engineer ? " He ( analogsurviver ) hears things most people do not recognize at all " - that from the direct competition. About the fairest comment one can possibly make by listening to , I assume,  something else than DSD128 masters on equipment over which I have no control of.
 
Here is a song from the first ever concert given by this choir, in a setting that SHOULD be favourable ( church I know well and is my go to church for live recordings ), but turned into nightmare on this particular recording - because due to the fact that the priest forgot there were TWO masses held that day instead of one and furthermore, my another friend had a rehearsal of his  recorder quartet that played in frame of the second mass. So, I arrived at 14:00 or 02:00AM, to give myself much more than needed time to set everything up well before the rehearsal of "my" choir would commence. The beginning of "my" choir concert was at 20:00 or 08:00PM - with the first possibility for me to place any microphone at 19:40 or 07:40 AM - and one can not do much during mere 10 minutes to which the choir had its rehearsal cut short due to the change of events on that particular day. Remember, this is not DSD128 master, but whatever highest quality YT supported at the time of upload :
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cb3CUjjdOCQ
 
 
The best "natural habitat" for listening to my DSD128 masters would be, in ascending order :
 
1. Maggies ( as big/good you can afford/get ) powered by "enough" ( lots of good amps to choose from  ) >
2. King*s Audio King III electrostatics from China http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/kingsound/1.html, again powered by "enough" - which, in this case, is REALLY tough on amps, as in the treble they dip below 1 ohm   and their reactive nature of impedance is far too tough nut to crack for normal amps. The one I have heard that is (almost) satisfactory is the Acoustat TNT 200 - which has been built specially to drive electrostatcs. It can power the IIIs to satisfactory level up to say Mozart symphony or large(r) choir; beyond that, two (in a bridged mode ) are required. But don*t demo this unless you can afford it - I can*t but did ...
Both of these setups require fairly large room - do not consider any in small(ish) rooms if good result is expected.
3.Whatever dynamic speaker that can, at least partially, emulate the above - but with MUCH improved SPL or dynamic range. I managed to play back my recording of Mahler*s 2nd finale I thought was clipped when listening to Maggies with a BIG amp on some ATC ( will have to ask for the model no... )  - but only just.  Please note this is extreme and not required for more than 99.9% of music.
 
And, for binaural recordings, AKG K-1000 ( + subwoofer ).
 
From all of the above, it should be crystal clear I am not joking.

 

[analogsurviver]

 
Parity bits are for error detection, not correction. Doesn't matter anyway, I'm sure that he cleans his connectors and uses the most expensive unobtanium cables to be found. I guess that I've just opened the door for a lecture on cables like we've never heard before.

Ha - WRONG !
 
I , usually, do not have time to clean the connectors. It takes some 2-3 minutes to do a single RCA - male or female - times say 40 it is quite time consuming. Last time I did a thorough job, my producer begged me to stop doing it - he heard way too much errors in the choir he is also a member of - the tenor.
 
I DID go trough the roof regarding connector reliability - or sheer ability to make a reliable contact in the first place. For cables I solder together myself , the connectors of choice are Neutrik models - either pro (with a spring loaded connect ground first ) or their lower priced REAN version ; both feature cable clamping arrangement that makes any cable twisting/pulling within the connector itself ( the usual mode of failure ) next to impossible and are as reliable as it gets. However, any soldered connector does not seal the cable from the atmosphere and hence oxidation - or, (in)famous copper rot ( it turns into a green mess - please do not say you never saw that ) over a period of time. Recently I got the chance to get factory made cable by Mogami ( Mogami part WR-10, made with Mogami 2965 cable with only approx 65pF/metre capacitance ) at an ridiculously discounted clearance price - which close even this oxidizing gap with moulded plastic connectors. The only really appealing quality of silver/silver plated cables is the fact that silver protects itself with oxidation and, although initially more expensive than copper, can in the long run prove to be more cost effective ( several replacements of Cu cable required over lifetime of an Ag cable ) - but at the lengths required for recording, it is ( at the present ) too much $$$ for me.  
 
I do realize some cables are, in particular application, better than the others. In real life, cost/performance ratio has to be factored in.  I find it amusing but not funny to what lengths with cable audiophools can go - while ignoring a ton of garden variety capacitors in whatever boxes they use connected to those cables. RBCD lovers have it easy regarding cables; but try to connect a really low output low impedance phono cartridge ( equal to or less than 0.1mV RMS output and 5 ohm impedance ), you*ll get it pretty soon why, for example, no longer produced XLO phono cable fetches such high prices on used market... - because, taken overall, it DOES provide for better sound in this application. You will again say it is a fringe case; yes, it is - but it is equally real.

 

[StanD]

  Ha - WRONG !
 
I , usually, do not have time to clean the connectors. It takes some 2-3 minutes to do a single RCA - male or female - times say 40 it is quite time consuming. Last time I did a thorough job, my producer begged me to stop doing it - he heard way too much errors in the choir he is also a member of - the tenor.
 
I DID go trough the roof regarding connector reliability - or sheer ability to make a reliable contact in the first place. For cables I solder together myself , the connectors of choice are Neutrik models - either pro (with a spring loaded connect ground first ) or their lower priced REAN version ; both feature cable clamping arrangement that makes any cable twisting/pulling within the connector itself ( the usual mode of failure ) next to impossible and are as reliable as it gets. However, any soldered connector does not seal the cable from the atmosphere and hence oxidation - or, (in)famous copper rot ( it turns into a green mess - please do not say you never saw that ) over a period of time. Recently I got the chance to get factory made cable by Mogami ( Mogami part WR-10, made with Mogami 2965 cable with only approx 65pF/metre capacitance ) at an ridiculously discounted clearance price - which close even this oxidizing gap with moulded plastic connectors. The only really appealing quality of silver/silver plated cables is the fact that silver protects itself with oxidation and, although initially more expensive than copper, can in the long run prove to be more cost effective ( several replacements of Cu cable required over lifetime of an Ag cable ) - but at the lengths required for recording, it is ( at the present ) too much $$$ for me.  
 
I do realize some cables are, in particular application, better than the others. In real life, cost/performance ratio has to be factored in.  I find it amusing but not funny to what lengths with cable audiophools can go - while ignoring a ton of garden variety capacitors in whatever boxes they use connected to those cables. RBCD lovers have it easy regarding cables; but try to connect a really low output low impedance phono cartridge ( equal to or less than 0.1mV RMS output and 5 ohm impedance ), you*ll get it pretty soon why, for example, no longer produced XLO phono cable fetches such high prices on used market... - because, taken overall, it DOES provide for better sound in this application. You will again say it is a fringe case; yes, it is - but it is equally real.

Cleaning cables are part of maintenance, not cable failures. Green copper rot is not a common problem, many times is has to do with extreme environmental conditions or poor storage.
A good solder connection has nothing to do with oxidation of the connectors, so I don't see any relevant meaning to your statement. If you are getting solder onto the connecting surfaces, that would be a mistake on your part.
If twisting and pulling on a cable causes failures, then you are not getting a cable designed for such a use case. That would be your fault for purchasing or constructing a cable not intended for this use case.
Copper, Silver or Unobtainium are all useless talking points. You should refrain from using fringe cases or concoctions as a means of establishing points. I look forward to your next long entertaining post.

 

[gregorio]

  From all of the above, it should be crystal clear I am not joking.

 
Oh dear, that's what I was afraid of! Thank you though, all your talk of dirty/clean musicians, DSD being nearly as good as analogue, what equipment to listen to your masters and of course your demo recording, at least you've completely put my mind at rest regarding the two alternatives I was musing.
 
G

 

[james444]

Get a chance to listen to analogsurviver's binaural stuff and you might realize he has an excellent understanding of recording and venue acoustics. Sometimes the proof is in the pudding. Jm2c.

 

[analogsurviver]

 
Cleaning cables are part of maintenance, not cable failures. Green copper rot is not a common problem, many times is has to do with extreme environmental conditions or poor storage.
A good solder connection has nothing to do with oxidation of the connectors, so I don't see any relevant meaning to your statement. If you are getting solder onto the connecting surfaces, that would be a mistake on your part.
If twisting and pulling on a cable causes failures, then you are not getting a cable designed for such a use case. That would be your fault for purchasing or constructing a cable not intended for this use case.
Copper, Silver or Unobtainium are all useless talking points. You should refrain from using fringe cases or concoctions as a means of establishing points. I look forward to your next long entertaining post.

I meant the oxydation of the cable itself, not the connectors, caused by the part of the cable close to the connector (that allows soldering,  say 1/2" ) being exposed to surrounding atmosphere - which, over time, will allow the oxidation across the whole length of the cable. Factory made cables that have RCA/cable joint sealed with moulded plastic , as the Mogami  mentioned, do not allow this to happen - and fare better over long periods of time ( say at least 5 years ). 
 
From your above remark above, one might conclude I do not know how to solder.
 
Ever replaced SMD - pin to pin INCOMPATIBLE - ICs - and the thing not only worked, but worked better than the original ? 
 
I did.

 

[GRUMPYOLDGUY]

  [1] I meant the oxydation of the cable itself, not the connectors, caused by the part of the cable close to the connector (that allows soldering,  say 1/2" ) being exposed to surrounding atmosphere - which, over time, will allow the oxidation across the whole length of the cable.
 
[2] Ever replaced SMD - pin to pin INCOMPATIBLE - ICs - and the thing not only worked, but worked better than the original ? 
 
I did.

 
[1] *facepalm*
 
[2] You mean you can solder a thin gauge wire from a pin to a PCB? ZOMG what an astonishing feat... You should start touring and talking about your experiences to CCA production techs. 
 
Any chance we can get back to some actual sound science discussion?  

 

[StanD]

  I meant the oxydation of the cable itself, not the connectors, caused by the part of the cable close to the connector (that allows soldering,  say 1/2" ) being exposed to surrounding atmosphere - which, over time, will allow the oxidation across the whole length of the cable. Factory made cables that have RCA/cable joint sealed with moulded plastic , as the Mogami  mentioned, do not allow this to happen - and fare better over long periods of time ( say at least 5 years ). 
 
From your above remark above, one might conclude I do not know how to solder.
 
Ever replaced SMD - pin to pin INCOMPATIBLE - ICs - and the thing not only worked, but worked better than the original ? 
 
I did.

I never said that you can't solder. If I have a critical cable I'll put a bead of silicon rubber or epoxy to seal the end of the insulation and exposed wires to help prevent oxidation. I think you're putting more into this cable thing than there really is. Sure there will be an occasional failure, however, if you are experiencing frequent cable problems that would not be normal and you would have to find out why this is happening to you.
I've soldered plenty enough, even wirewrapped prototypes with over 100 IC's. Let's not get into a contest on fabricating cables. etc.
How about some new topics in sound science rather than more of the same stuff rehashed.

 

[GRUMPYOLDGUY]

I just came from a thread where a dude bought some cork coasters from Walmart to help mechanically isolate his power conditioner from vibrations through the shelf it was sitting on... He claimed it made his system sound too "floaty"... Of all the jibberish I've read on these forums, I've never once come across the term "floaty"... But I guess it's pretty accurate... his power conditioner is now "floating" about a 1/16th of an inch off the shelf because of the coasters.... *sigh* you can't make this stuff up... 

 

[sonitus mirus]

  I just came from a thread where a dude bought some cork coasters from Walmart to help mechanically isolate his power conditioner from vibrations through the shelf it was sitting on... He claimed it made his system sound too "floaty"... Of all the jibberish I've read on these forums, I've never once come across the term "floaty"... But I guess it's pretty accurate... his power conditioner is now "floating" about a 1/16th of an inch off the shelf because of the coasters.... *sigh* you can't make this stuff up... 

 
Floaty is a good one.  Hopefully they weren't talking about their stool.  
 
In the last year, we have these mentions:
 
Floataganza!

 

[krismusic]

Floaty is a good one.  Hopefully they weren't talking about their stool.  

In the last year, we have these mentions:

Floataganza!

Good grief!

 

[sonitus mirus]

Good grief!

 
Yep!  My new favorite quote: "There was an instant veil of artificiality removed."  From ball bearings resting on clothespins, no less.

 

[spruce music]

   
Yep!  My new favorite quote: "There was an instant veil of artificiality removed."  From ball bearings resting on clothespins, no less.

What, no hard pinned in sound?

 

[Argyris]

I could kind of see that word used to describe a sound signature that lacks fundamental and bass extension, which would lack a solid foundation and would therefore sound "floaty". Of course there are better ways of describing this effect, including the sentence I just typed before this one.

 

[StanD]

Some people will buy into anything, no matter how strange it may sound. Remember the one about putting dull razor blades under a pyramid and they would be sharpened overnight? I wonder what would happen if I put my headphones under a pyramid. Would they become strident, airy or just experience a treble boost? I don't think that idea that might sell on the forums.
 
So what's with this overexcitement with R2R DACs? They're all 16 bit and that limits the resolution and DR to about 96 dBV. Last year people were getting into a twist about 32 bits. Imagine the wattage required to truly harness that and the resulting SPL might level the neighborhood. Good thing there isn't any source material that could rise to the occasion.