[castleofargh]

if learning to use RMAA is too much of a hassle, we can make a few hypothesis and try stuff. are the speakers still not satisfying using a cellphone a tablet or anything else as a source? if so you have your answer, you don't like the speakers.
if there is a huge difference and you clearly prefer those sources, then maybe the computer/app settings are screwed up.

if the speakers end up being the likely culprit, try to move them around in case there is a big issue with the room placement. try elevating them so that there is less reflection from your desk. maybe it's simply that you wished you had a lot more subs. they're said to be fairly good and flat for the price, but I seem to remember that the low end rolls off early.
I'd usually suggest to get a microphone and verify the response at the listening position, but if RMAA was troublesome, let's forget that part
only ideas and no real fix, but you can at least test your preferences and guess which element you want to replace.

 

[Red Dragon]

I may be mistaken about the model, but on a $1200 CAD setup you put <200$ in the speakers themselves? As most DAC (and solid state amps) are audio transparent you could have put nearly all that money in the speakers themselves with results from another world really.

I sincerely hope that there is a fixable malfunction in your setup, I'd suggest cross-testing your componants one by one.
- Plug the speakers on your older source, if they perform better you will have a lead
- Test your source with other speakers, maybe a headset?

The speakers cost me $279.99 USD plus $67.62 USD in shipping costs, plus additional taxes and handling fees upon receiving them.

If I put all the money into the speakers themselves, then I would have been stuck with crappy onboard Realtek as my amp & dac.

Although I'm still not understanding why my Magni 3 + Modi Multibit + LSR30X sounds almost as bad as my onboard Realtek + crappy 20 year old Kenwood mini system. That is not normal, is it?

Testing with other sources is a great idea, but I don't have hardware laying around with which I can do that. That's why I was hoping that by making this thread I could be pointed to some software that is capable objectively to test whether my gear is faulty or not.

I assume that I can't plug the speakers into my Kenwood amp since that would be double amping them?

After I pay down the gear I already I have, then I could eventually try adding a Schiit Eitr. But I'm not sure if that would be throwing good money after bad? Maybe the Eitr might fix these problems? Or maybe I might install an Eitr and then still have all the same problems?

if learning to use RMAA is too much of a hassle, we can make a few hypothesis and try stuff. are the speakers still not satisfying using a cellphone a tablet or anything else as a source? if so you have your answer, you don't like the speakers.
if there is a huge difference and you clearly prefer those sources, then maybe the computer/app settings are screwed up.

Unfortunately, I don't have a cellphone or tablet.

 

[MindsMirror]

Your expectations are off. You don't need to spend a lot on a DAC to get good sound from it. Current technology is at the point where even cheap DACs like your onboard Realtek are usually very close to audibly transparent unless there is an obvouls problem like interference. If there are improvements to be had, they are very subtle. As for the speakers, the LSR305 is technically better than your XD-550 but I think you're expecting too much. From what I can tell they are similar sized speakers, and accounting for inflation your old speakers were actually more expensive. The XD-550 does have other features which the LSR305 doesn't which complicates the comparison, but I expect they are still a similar class of speaker to each other. It's not like you're upgrading from small computer speakers to a full tower system.

So from what I can tell, you spent a total of $1200 on the DAC which won't give you much over your onboard sound, plus the headphone amp which does nothing at all to improve the sound quality of the speaker setup, plus the speakers themselves which aren't a huge upgrade over what you had, and your expectation is that it will sound 4 times better.

 

[bigshot]

^ this

I have a $40 Walmart DVD player that sounds as good as my expensive Oppo player. Players and DACs aren't where you should be spending your money. Go cheap on that end. Spend your money on the headphones / speakers. Then get an amp that is powerful enough to drive it.

Personally, I would take a good set of 1970s 12 inch three way speakers from the 70s over a pair of near field monitors any day. You can get great speakers at the Goodwill if you don't mind larger cabinets and you know what you're looking for.

 

[spruce music]

The speakers cost me $279.99 USD plus $67.62 USD in shipping costs, plus additional taxes and handling fees upon receiving them.

If I put all the money into the speakers themselves, then I would have been stuck with crappy onboard Realtek as my amp & dac.

Although I'm still not understanding why my Magni 3 + Modi Multibit + LSR30X sounds almost as bad as my onboard Realtek + crappy 20 year old Kenwood mini system. That is not normal, is it?

Testing with other sources is a great idea, but I don't have hardware laying around with which I can do that. That's why I was hoping that by making this thread I could be pointed to some software that is capable objectively to test whether my gear is faulty or not.

I assume that I can't plug the speakers into my Kenwood amp since that would be double amping them?

After I pay down the gear I already I have, then I could eventually try adding a Schiit Eitr. But I'm not sure if that would be throwing good money after bad? Maybe the Eitr might fix these problems? Or maybe I might install an Eitr and then still have all the same problems?



Unfortunately, I don't have a cellphone or tablet.

Don't buy a Eitr. It won't fix your problem.

I suggest as others simplifying the system and checking things one at a time. Surely someone could bring over a smartphone or other music source you could plug directly into your 305 speakers and see how that sounds.

Is your computer running Windows or something else. I or others can step by step tell you how to send a signal through the Schitt, back into the analog input of your onboard sound card on the computer. Then you can run a sweep or some white noise and see if it has flat response. You can run a test tone thru it and see if it has excessive distortion. I haven't used RMAA in too long to remember the details. Feeding a signal to your Schitt and the output of that into the analog input of your on board sound card should allow you to run the full RMAA test signals.

 

[Red Dragon]

Don't buy a Eitr. It won't fix your problem.

But what if my problem is caused by the Gen 2 USB board in the Modi? In that case, wouldn't the Eitr solve my problem?

Is your computer running Windows or something else. I or others can step by step tell you how to send a signal through the Schitt, back into the analog input of your onboard sound card on the computer. Then you can run a sweep or some white noise and see if it has flat response. You can run a test tone thru it and see if it has excessive distortion. I haven't used RMAA in too long to remember the details. Feeding a signal to your Schitt and the output of that into the analog input of your on board sound card should allow you to run the full RMAA test signals.

I am running WIndows 10. That could be great and I appreciate the help, but I might be returning or exchanging the Modi (as I discuss in more detail below). The thing is, what if we run the test and then it says nothing is wrong with my Modi? My Modi would still sound bad with my system anyway...so maybe I need something that's not a Modi?

Your expectations are off. You don't need to spend a lot on a DAC to get good sound from it. Current technology is at the point where even cheap DACs like your onboard Realtek are usually very close to audibly transparent unless there is an obvouls problem like interference. If there are improvements to be had, they are very subtle. As for the speakers, the LSR305 is technically better than your XD-550 but I think you're expecting too much. From what I can tell they are similar sized speakers, and accounting for inflation your old speakers were actually more expensive. The XD-550 does have other features which the LSR305 doesn't which complicates the comparison, but I expect they are still a similar class of speaker to each other. It's not like you're upgrading from small computer speakers to a full tower system.

So from what I can tell, you spent a total of $1200 on the DAC which won't give you much over your onboard sound, plus the headphone amp which does nothing at all to improve the sound quality of the speaker setup, plus the speakers themselves which aren't a huge upgrade over what you had, and your expectation is that it will sound 4 times better.

I bought the amp because I needed a volume knob since the Modi doesn't have one. And because it gives me a way to use headphones (which makes it worth the $50 above the Schiit SYS).

You are probably right that my expectations are way off. When it comes to audio, I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing. However, my expectations seemed very reasonable before I saw your post and the other similar posts in this thread. Before I bought the stuff, I tried to do my due diligence by reading tons of reviews and user opinions about what are the best soundcards or external DAC/amps, and also what are the best speakers in the $300 price range. During that research, I saw tons of universal acclaim for the Modi Multibit (and Schiit products in general) and the LSR305s. I've seen many people say of the LSR305s and of the Modi Multibit that they provide outstanding, remarkable clarity (but they definitely don't on my system). Yet now you and others in this thread seem to be telling me that the products I bought aren't that great? So what I heard during my research and what I think I'm hearing now seem to be conflicting messages?

More observations:

1. Today I heard a "popping" sound coming through my speakers...it's not a crackling kind of sound...rather, it sounds like a cork popping out of a bottle in a cartoon. I used to hear that exact same sound at sporadic intervals before I installed the Schiit gear. I had assumed that that sound occurred due to electrical interference inside my computer case. But apparently that's not the cause? What is the cause? Why does it still happen with an external DAC/amp? Is this related to why my sound does not sound good?

2. Similarly, when I plug my 598 Cs headphones into my Magni 3, I sometimes experiences another problem that I also used to experience when I plugged those headphones directly into my onboard Realtek. The problem is, I feel a wave of vibrations shaking across the headphones, even when no sound is playing. When this happens, it sounds a little bit like if you hold a seashell to your ear (only this sound is weaker than that). While that sensation is happening, the headphones become extremely uncomfortable to wear. What is that sensation? I used to assume that it too was caused by electrical interference inside my case, but apparently it's not? Why does that still happen with an external DAC/amp? Is this related to why my sound does not sound good?

3. When I searched the web for possible solutions to my sound problems, I found a program called LatencyMon. When I ran it, it said my computer might have trouble running audio properly, and it said my machine was having buffer underruns. However, the program's suggested solutions were useless. It told me to solve the problem my optimizing my OS's power settings, which already were optimized, and by updating my BIOS even though it was, and by telling my BIOS not to throttle my CPU, which I don't think it was set to do. Are these buffer underruns actually related to my sound problem, or not? If so, how do I really fix them?

4. I'm still within the 15 day window to return or exchange my Modi if I so choose. I am tempted to exercise that option and take on more debt and exchange it for the Bifrost Multibit, in hopes that the Gen 5 USB of that and/or the different power structure compared to the Modi Multibit will cause the Bifrost not to sound like crap with my system (in contrast to how the Modi Multibit does sound like crap with my system). I really hate to take on more debt, but what I would hate even more than that is to be stuck with a DAC that isn't giving me good sound. However, I'm also mindful of the advice I was given earlier that an Eitr won't solve my problem, and so maybe a Gen 5 USB board in the Bifrost won't either.

But if a Bifrost won't get my system sounding good, then what would? I expect the ideal answer would be "new speakers," but this rabbit hole has already been ravaging my budget way too much, so for that reason new speakers probably aren't in the cards right now. I realize I was given advice to look for secondhand speakers in Goodwill, but in my city Goodwill jumped ship a while ago. Although even if they didn't, I don't have the knowledge which would enable me to judge whether a second-hand speaker is good or not.

In simpler terms, right now my main goal is to find the least expensive way to make my audio stop sounding like crap. How can I accomplish that?

 

[MindsMirror]

Definitely don't replace the Modi with a Bifrost. If there is an actual fault in your system, you need to figure out what's causing it first. If there is some fault with the Modi or one of your other components then you should just be able to exchange it under warranty, and if it's not the Modi then the Bifrost won't help.

Try to get the RMAA test working. Also create a recording of the popping and the weird seashell sounds. Both of these should be doable using the line-input on your onboard sound, with a cable to connect the Modi to it. It's very difficult to tell what these could be from a written description, but with a little luck you can capture something in a recording or RMAA result which might reveal something.

I'd also see if a friend or family member has components (a phone, iPod, or laptop) you can borrow to help isolate which if any of yours is causing problems.

 

[spruce music]

Okay, the LSR305's are excellent speakers for something their size and better than you can get possibly anywhere else for the price. Unless they are malfunctioning or you are using them inappropriately (using them in a huge room expecting the little boxes to fill it with sound at high sound levels) they aren't the problem. As for whether or not I know the difference, I have heard many speakers including some highly expensive speakers over many years. My regular speakers are 20 times the price of the LSR305s. I use the 305s as monitors when mixing amateur recording of music I do. Unless they are malfunctioning they aren't your issue.

There have been a few reports of the Modi being prone to passing on noise from the computer over USB. They have been measured to be poor at isolating themselves from the USB line. Maybe the Eitr would help that, on the other hand some measurements using $20 powered USB hubs have isolated it as well. In my opinion, this is deficient design. I would return it for that reason if it were me. This might explain the computer sounds getting thru to the speakers as often happens with on board sound cards. I don't know that it explains the rest of your complaints about the sound. I also don't see the benefit in swapping to another DAC from the same company or paying them for an extra gadget to fix what shouldn't have been there in the first place. It sounds like your on board sound card sounds the same as the Modi. Send the Modi back. Why pay for something that improves nothing.

As for why the Modi is praised all over, ..................you are learning something about the relative uselessness of subjective listening impressions. Despite all the stuff you read, well designed DACs from $200 to $5000 sound pretty close to the same. Speakers on the other hand are all very, very different. The speakers you have are good. I of course have no way of determining what your expectations really are. Have you heard someone else's music system that you think is great?

Before you do anything, it would be good to find out what it is you are hearing and where the problem is. Otherwise you'll be thrashing around hopelessly and perhaps expensively accomplishing nothing. You need some other source to feed the JBL's and see if you hear an improvement as a first step. Can you borrow a DVD player and play some music CD's? Can you borrow a portable digital music player and try it? Even something like an old Sony Walkman or Discman would work. You need an alternate source component to see if the problem is playing from your computer as a first step. The other choice is another audiophile with some experience to give it a listen and say if it sound okay to them or sounds messed up.

 

[bigshot]

I would suggest returning everything and just getting a DAP like an iPod or something. Keep it simple.

 

[Red Dragon]

Definitely don't replace the Modi with a Bifrost. If there is an actual fault in your system, you need to figure out what's causing it first. If there is some fault with the Modi or one of your other components then you should just be able to exchange it under warranty, and if it's not the Modi then the Bifrost won't help.

Try to get the RMAA test working. Also create a recording of the popping and the weird seashell sounds. Both of these should be doable using the line-input on your onboard sound, with a cable to connect the Modi to it.

I see the logic about why finding a fault in the system is good to do first. But on the other hand, the 15 day window of opportunity during which I can possibly return or exchange the Modi is closing fast. So that kind of rushes me into making decisions before I can figure out the test.

What kind of cable would I need to connect the Modi to the line input of my onboard sound?

I'm confused about why recording the popping and seashell sounds would be easy, because they happen at extremely random & irregular intervals. The popping sound is less frequent, and once I've heard it, then it's gone: so I wouldn't be able to record it unless the recording was already operating before it occurred. But how would I know when to turn the recording on? Wouldn't I have to record everything 24/7 until I hear the popping sound happen?

There have been a few reports of the Modi being prone to passing on noise from the computer over USB. They have been measured to be poor at isolating themselves from the USB line. Maybe the Eitr would help that, on the other hand some measurements using $20 powered USB hubs have isolated it as well. In my opinion, this is deficient design. I would return it for that reason if it were me. This might explain the computer sounds getting thru to the speakers as often happens with on board sound cards. I don't know that it explains the rest of your complaints about the sound. I also don't see the benefit in swapping to another DAC from the same company or paying them for an extra gadget to fix what shouldn't have been there in the first place. It sounds like your on board sound card sounds the same as the Modi. Send the Modi back. Why pay for something that improves nothing.

As for why the Modi is praised all over, ..................you are learning something about the relative uselessness of subjective listening impressions. Despite all the stuff you read, well designed DACs from $200 to $5000 sound pretty close to the same. Speakers on the other hand are all very, very different. The speakers you have are good. I of course have no way of determining what your expectations really are. Have you heard someone else's music system that you think is great?

You need some other source to feed the JBL's and see if you hear an improvement as a first step. Can you borrow a DVD player and play some music CD's? Can you borrow a portable digital music player and try it? Even something like an old Sony Walkman or Discman would work. You need an alternate source component to see if the problem is playing from your computer as a first step. The other choice is another audiophile with some experience to give it a listen and say if it sound okay to them or sounds messed up.

I have heard music systems in universities that sound great, but I have no idea what gear they are using. I have also heard great music systems when I was a kid decades ago. I know what great sound sounds like, but I haven't heard any in anyone's home in recent years so I don't have any frame of reference for knowing what good modern audio gear is.

That's one of the reasons why I was hoping there was a way that I could relay what I'm hearing to you guys; i.e. if I could record an audio file that accurately represents what I hear, and then you guys would hear the same thing if you played back that file...but since no one has suggested that, I'm assuming it's not possible?

"Why pay for something that improves nothing" --- That's a wise principle, but one possible reason would be because a lot of the funds I've spent to acquire the Modi are already lost, so to make the Modi work better would be a way to make those funds be worth something. For example, I am not able to recoup the costs I've paid to ship the Modi to me, nor the taxes and handling fees I've paid to receive the Modi. And I have to pay to ship it back. Then I get dinged with restocking fees (presuming I don't exchange it up for another model). And if I buy another DAC from Schiit or anyone else, then I'm gonna get dinged with more taxes and more shipping charges and more handling fees. So there are pros & cons to any of these choices.

I do have a couple of DVD players buried in my closet, but I didn't know they could play CDs. I have CDs in my closet too. I wouldn't have realized that I'd be able to test DVD players with my speakers if not for you having made that post. I'll give that a try. That's a great idea.

I also found an old NEX IA MP3 player in one of my drawers and it still works. But I'm not sure if connecting that to my speakers would be useful? Because I tried playing that MP3 player with it connected to my 598 Cs and and IMO it sounded probably ~40% worse than does the Magni 3 connected to my computer and using the same headphones. So if I feed music into my speakers from the MP3 player, then maybe the speakers would still sound bad just because the MP3 player source is bad? And also I'm not sure if that would be double-amping my speakers?

If I return the Modi and if I also do not buy another Schiit product instead, then that creates a new problem insomuch as I'm back to square one in terms of not having a good DAC, and also not knowing how to choose a good DAC to purchase. How am I know what would be a good company to buy from and which DAC product to buy?

In your opinion should I send the Magni 3 back too and buy an amp from a different company? IMO listening to the Magni 3 with headphones sounds exactly the same as does listening to my LSR30Xs, but I'm not sure if that is because (a) the Magni 3 is being hampered by the same problem with my system that is hampering the Modi and/or (b) the Magni is being bottlenecked by my 598 Cs.

By the way, thank you to everyone who's sharing lots of great knowledge and advice in this thread. I very much appreciate that.

 

[gregorio]

1. Today I heard a "popping" sound coming through my speakers...it's not a crackling kind of sound...rather, it sounds like a cork popping out of a bottle in a cartoon. I used to hear that exact same sound at sporadic intervals before I installed the Schiit gear. I had assumed that that sound occurred due to electrical interference inside my computer case. But apparently that's not the cause? What is the cause? Why does it still happen with an external DAC/amp? Is this related to why my sound does not sound good?

2. Similarly, when I plug my 598 Cs headphones into my Magni 3, I sometimes experiences another problem that I also used to experience when I plugged those headphones directly into my onboard Realtek. The problem is, I feel a wave of vibrations shaking across the headphones, even when no sound is playing. When this happens, it sounds a little bit like if you hold a seashell to your ear (only this sound is weaker than that). While that sensation is happening, the headphones become extremely uncomfortable to wear. What is that sensation? I used to assume that it too was caused by electrical interference inside my case, but apparently it's not? Why does that still happen with an external DAC/amp? Is this related to why my sound does not sound good?

3. When I searched the web for possible solutions to my sound problems, I found a program called LatencyMon. When I ran it, it said my computer might have trouble running audio properly, and it said my machine was having buffer underruns. However, the program's suggested solutions were useless. It told me to solve the problem my optimizing my OS's power settings, which already were optimized, and by updating my BIOS even though it was, and by telling my BIOS not to throttle my CPU, which I don't think it was set to do. Are these buffer underruns actually related to my sound problem, or not? If so, how do I really fix them?

4. I'm still within the 15 day window to return or exchange my Modi if I so choose. I am tempted to exercise that option and take on more debt and exchange it for the Bifrost Multibit, in hopes that the Gen 5 USB of that and/or the different power structure compared to the Modi Multibit will cause the Bifrost not to sound like crap with my system (in contrast to how the Modi Multibit does sound like crap with my system). I really hate to take on more debt, but what I would hate even more than that is to be stuck with a DAC that isn't giving me good sound. However, I'm also mindful of the advice I was given earlier that an Eitr won't solve my problem, and so maybe a Gen 5 USB board in the Bifrost won't either.

Your observation #2 is particularly concerning. Although your description is a bit vague to be certain, a great deal of very low frequency energy could be one likely explanation and if this is the case, you should probably stop playing music for now as it could damage your headphones or speakers!

Your observations #1 and #3 indicate a very serious problem with your computer or it's settings. I say "very serious" because even a very old computer should have no problem supplying perfect audio data to your sound-card or external DAC and highly imperfect audio data is the most likely cause of the popping you describe. Are you certain that there is no software sample rate conversion occurring or that you are not attempting to play very high sample rate/bit depth recordings which could potentially stress an old computer enough to cause the issue you are describing? Another cause of stressing your computer too far would be too many programs or processes running in the background.

Your observation #4 and related points are probably irrelevant because the most likely explanation for your issues is a serious problem with the signal/data your computer is supplying and if so, pretty much any equipment placed downstream of your computer will exhibit issues caused by that problem.

Troubleshooting a system is firstly about identifying where in system the trouble is. So you need to remove/replace groups of equipment and then individual pieces to narrow down and then isolate the culprit. My guess is that the problem lies with your computer/settings and therefore that's the first thing I would remove/replace. For example, take your DAC and speakers to a friend's house and try them with their computer as source or get them to bring their laptop/computer to you. If the problems disappear, you know it must be an issue with your computer and then it's a case of applying the same narrowing down/isolation process to identify exactly what in your computer is causing the issue.

G

 

[bigshot]

I don't think there is anything wrong with any of your equipment. I think you just haven't implemented it well. It's best to build towards a goal and understand what you're doing every step of the way. Just buying things that other people say are good and plugging them all together gets random results. If you have a return window, go ahead and return whatever you can. Then come back and we can help you get bang for the buck.

 

[MindsMirror]

Am I correct that you have used the LSR305 and/or your headphones to compared the Modi vs you onboard DAC? And from your comparison it seems the Modi is not noticeably better than the onboard? That must mean that either the Modi is actually not noticeably better and is not worth keeping over the onboard DAC, or that the Modi is better but yours happens to be defective somehow (I doubt this is the case). In either of these cases, it is not bringing any valuable to you now so even considering the loss to the extra fees, I think the correct decision is to return it and recoup what you can.

Same think for the speakers. Seems like you just don't like them enough to justify keeping them, or both of the ones you got happened to be defective in the exact same way as each other, again very unlikely. In either case, it sound's like you're not happy with them and you'll probably regret keeping them.

I definitely would not try to buy more expensive components in hopes that they will be better or fix this unknown problem. That's a slippery slope that I don't see ending well, unless you can identify exactly what it is before returning stuff.

For the RMAA test you just need a cable with RCAs on one end which plugs into the Modi, and 3.5mm jack on the other which plugs into the onboard sound line in.

 

[bigshot]

^ this

 

[ev13wt]

Although I'm still not understanding why my Magni 3 + Modi Multibit + LSR30X sounds almost as bad as my onboard Realtek + crappy 20 year old Kenwood mini system. That is not normal, is it?

.

The difference to the onboard audio, assuming there is no noise (if you use the mouse you hear funny sounds from the speakers) is maybe 5%, probably more like 1%
Amps - same thing. If you are not driving them so hard that they distort, the differences between them is like... you guessed it... 5%, probably more like 1%


Of course stuff sounds different - mostly on purpose (sounded, house sound) or because of cut costs.

They are small speakers. They will sound ... boring. Boring is usually "flat". I "think" its that you are not used to this. Find a studio in your area. Ask for a short demo of their monitors with a song of your choice. Use a CD. That will help you more than any thread ever.


Are the speakers flat on the table or elevated? Are the tweeters pointing towards your ears? Where is your head in relation to the speakers?

Do you have any headfones? Any at all? What kind are they? What sounds different if you use them instead of the speakers? Volume must be the same, because louder always sounds better.

Put on headfones, one side only. Play music. Match volume of speaker to earpiece. Listen. Describe differences.