[philodox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodgy BMI is not useless as a statistical measure. Where it makes less sense is in labeling people as "obese" or "overweight." I agree with you there.

I think we are on the same page here.

As for the rest, I will have to give that site a thorough read before I respond.

EDIT: As an iteresting aside, I think that if most people were to glance at me they would think that I am 'slim' or 'in good shape'... but they would be wrong. I am most definately overweight by the 'industry standards' and don't really take the best care of myself.

 

[Wodgy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by philodox I will take a look at that website you linked when I have some more time to give it a serious read. I must say though, that from a quick glance it does not look neutral at all, but skewed in completely the opposite direction.

Neutral in science means looking at all the research, weighting larger studies and longer term studies more heavily, and then attempting to accurately represent the overall conclusions.

You can always find an oddball study that disagrees with the trend, especially small, short term studies. That's how the study of nature and science works -- there are studies showing that saline injections cause cancer in rats, for instance -- but you have to look at the preponderance of the evidence. A guy with an axe to grind and a book to write like Campos (and, really, this is typical of the style of argument of lawyers in general) does the opposite: he finds the oddball study and plays it up, completely ignoring the overall trend. That is an intellectually dishonest way to look at the research.

 

[F1GTR]

U.S. Surgeon General Richard Carmona stated that "Obesity is a greater threat than terrorism."

That's all I needed to read to know I won't be putting any faith in these "facts".

 

[PhilS]

I thought BMI was a pretty good indicator, generally, of the problem with being overweight. Now, of course, some people have a high BMI due to high muscle mass. But to say that Arnold S. (our Gov) has a high BMI and yet is not obese and is very healthy (let's assume) does not mean that BMI is not a good indicator of obesity or weight-related problems, anymore than coming across a pit bull that happens to act like a kitten should convince one that there is no need to approach pit bulls with some caution.

I just skimmed the website, but I also had the reaction that it was a typical attempt to discredit what is pretty basic medical science. That's what we do nowadays. Oh, you're overweight or have some other problem? Well, it is not really a problem and here's why, or it is somebody else's fault. None of us are perfect and we all have our issues, vices, etc., but I think this is another instance that demonstrates that denial is not just a river in Egypt.

 

[philodox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wodgy Neutral in science means looking at all the research, weighting larger studies and longer term studies more heavily, and then attempting to accurately represent the overall conclusions.

Yup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1GTR That's all I needed to read to know I won't be putting any faith in these "facts".

You may want to read further as the rest of the material on that website is geared towards disproving that statement and not reinforcing it.

 

[harkamus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by plainsong I'm curious though, since you seemed to have voiced a popular opinion in such black and white terms, in your mind, is there any such thing as a fat active person, or does fat always equal lazyness and sedentary lifestyle?

There are as you call fat active people. Muscle structure can be quite varied. Take a body builder and a power lifter for example. That's probably the classic example. Body builders lift to increase muscle size with respect to bodily proportion. Power lifters lift in terms of increasing muscular function; they are not usually the biggest people out there. I'm talking of course Olympic powerlifting...not the televised "World's Strongest Man" competition.

So no, fat does not always mean a lazy bastage. Hehe.

 

[JahJahBinks]

it depends on the rate of metabolism.

 

[plainsong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by harkamus There are as you call fat active people. Muscle structure can be quite varied. Take a body builder and a power lifter for example. That's probably the classic example. Body builders lift to increase muscle size with respect to bodily proportion. Power lifters lift in terms of increasing muscular function; they are not usually the biggest people out there. I'm talking of course Olympic powerlifting...not the televised "World's Strongest Man" competition. So no, fat does not always mean a lazy bastage. Hehe.

I wanted to clarify because it sounded sorta like we could all feel free to prejudge someone without know their story, their lifestyle, or even really their health and fitness level, but just based on the extra baggage. The conclusion I personally draw, and it sounds like we're on the same page, is that only you and the people who know you know if you need to take the stairs instead of the elevator.

I'm coming from the POV that I've always been round myself, but really healthy, strangely enough, according to the statistics anyway. I've never had a doctor pressure me into loosing weight, but I guess that's because my health check-ups are always good. I wish I had time to work out more, don't we all? I was the most fit when I spending summer days running around a football field (band), and then going home to train 3 or 4 horses at any given time. I've never been thin as such, but that lifestyle really tends to keep you at your fighting weight.

So personally I feel as a lot of thin folks feel, that I'm fairly active, I walk at least a couple miles a day, I swim, all that good stuff, I only have time to eat one meal a day (which really isn't good for you, but what can ya do?), and I wish I had time to do more, to eat three meals a day, to hit the weights. This is a common lament for everyone. Not many people I know feel they're doing everything they can.

My feeling is that if we (fat, thin, doesn't matter, just people in general) stopped being so obsessed with the weight thing, and we just stuck to our favorite active lifestyles, and ate reasonably moreso than not, than the weight would regulate itself. I have this theory that we all have that set weight that our bodies try its best to maintain. If you've been on a crash diet, you know how badly you react when go far below it, and if you've binged and lived on the couch for a year, you know how it feels to go far above it.

 

[jjcha]

Lol, am I the only one who thinks its funny this thread was started by a pretty skinny guy?

(wonders if Jay happens to fall into the inactive thin category... oh wait, that's me!

)

Best,

-Jason

 

[plainsong]

You mean the thin fat people? How do you do it? I look at good and gain 5 pounds. I only eat once a day, and there are people who are thin as toothpicks, who couldn't lift a bag of groceries without their arms falling off, but still, they're thin. How do they manage that? It's a phenomenon I tell you.

 

[ADS]

I think the person who made this website should have spent the time in the gym instead.

Seriously, if you don't think being obese contributes to an early death, you're kidding yourself.

 

[plainsong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADS I think the person who made this website should have spent the time in the gym instead. Seriously, if you don't think being obese contributes to an early death, you're kidding yourself.

Ah, let's all bask in the hate.

Let's see, I walk, I swim, I admittedly don't have time to hit the weights. I don't often go over 1500 calories a day. I don't count calories, but it's tough to go over that, for me anyway. I won't go any less. I'm not into pain and suffering in the struggle for some image I don't care about anyway.

Besides just killing myself so that society doesn't have to look upon my horrible self, what would you have me do?

/and no, of course I don't dwell on these things, nor do I think badly of myself, but it's comments like that, that smack of pure hatred and stupidity. The mysteries of obsessity haven't all been answered yet. There's this whole balance between genetics, and metabolism and health, and how we were raised, and what we eat, and our lifestyles. There's no one answer that's right. It's the whole freaking package.

Getting up and doing something is good advice for anyone with a reasonable level of health. But it may not magically make you thin. If you think that, then you're in for dissapointment.

 

[harkamus]

Don't feel like multiquoting.... It has a lot to do with the metabolic rate of different shapes. To start with there are three basic types of bodies, ectomorphic, mesomorphic, and endomorphic. Most people are a combination of two of those. On one extreme is the ectomorph, the classic skinny guy that has little fat and has a hard time at gaining weight as a result. On the other end of the extreme is the mesomorph. These types have an easier time gaining and losing weight, and as a result have an easier time putting on muscle mass. It all depends on what kind of person you are. Also, while it is difficult to change your body type, it is not difficult to change your daily habits.

And yea, big ppl aren't always the unhealthy ones. I remember running up Stone Mountain with a friend of mine. Those around Atlanta, GA may know what this park is. Anyway, I saw a bigger lady leaving the skinny people in the dust.

Ideal body weight is useless. So is the notion of dieting. Dieting is not not eating, but changing what you eat. A good diet will leave you full without the excess baggage.

I think plainsong hit it on the head. Only you know if you need to take a more proactive approach to a healthier lifestyle. If you get tired walking up a flight of steps, I think it's time to put the remote down.

 

[plainsong]

I've also heard of those body types but didn't remember all of it enough to type it out. To reply to a small part of that, I remember this one reality tv show, can't remember what it was about but there was this family that you could call teh Pudgy family. Mom, Dad, and son were as round as little butterballs. I just assumed it ran in the family, and while food wasn't the focus of the show, the lifestyle that they put on this kid was unforgiveable. I think he was getting fast food like for every meal. And then he discovered that he liked downhill cycling, and liked hiking. That should absolutely have been encouraged, but was it? Noooo, mom and dad didn't like that stuff, and the son shouldn't either. Really sad, they were setting this kid's future in stone.

For my part, in order to maintain a size 18, I need to be really really really really active. I need to have 3 or 4 young horses that need my attention on hot summer days, I need to be running around everywhere at once, and eating pretty much as I am now. Any thinner than that and I feel sick and weak, and my face looks gaunt and pale. But above that is my fighting weight, I'm really solid at a size 18. If that's a turn-off for some of you, that's ok, I'm married....and your loss.

But sadly, at my current activity level, which is still more active than some, all I'm doing is maintaining. This is common complaint for many people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by harkamus Don't feel like multiquoting.... It has a lot to do with the metabolic rate of different shapes. To start with there are three basic types of bodies, ectomorphic, mesomorphic, and endomorphic. Most people are a combination of two of those. On one extreme is the ectomorph, the classic skinny guy that has little fat and has a hard time at gaining weight as a result. On the other end of the extreme is the mesomorph. These types have an easier time gaining and losing weight, and as a result have an easier time putting on muscle mass. It all depends on what kind of person you are. Also, while it is difficult to change your body type, it is not difficult to change your daily habits. And yea, big ppl aren't always the unhealthy ones. I remember running up Stone Mountain with a friend of mine. Those around Atlanta, GA may know what this park is. Anyway, I saw a bigger lady leaving the skinny people in the dust. Ideal body weight is useless. So is the notion of dieting. Dieting is not not eating, but changing what you eat. A good diet will leave you full without the excess baggage. I think plainsong hit it on the head. Only you know if you need to take a more proactive approach to a healthier lifestyle. If you get tired walking up a flight of steps, I think it's time to put the remote down.

edit - I just wanted to add that I'm breaking that cardinal rule that women don't talk to strange men about weight and fitness, because I think there are more round people here than would let on. They're usually the biggest (no pun intended) haters. Easier to get the jab in first before someone else does. I feel that no one has the right to judge you. If you're living a healthy lifestyle, then no need to have to take this "Fat people should all just die" attitude that you see so often on the net. And even if you're not being all you can be, people are human, we make mistakes, if you really do have a problem, then it's your own, so don't let any internet bully make you feel otherwise.

 

[hongda]

I would also like to mention that being "rounder" is a little bit more prevalent in females at an older age due to maternity. Once a lady has a child, a lot of times the metabolism will change drastically in addition to the lifestyle changes that a child brings along.


Not to say it's not prevalent in males, but males don't experience a body changing experience as having a baby....