[Arkady Duntov]

It can be handy when using portable devices as source. Just to clear possible confusion: AE-5 is noticeably better and the advantage in soundstage is drastic. The difference is actually quite big which is surprising. Makes me wonder whether or not Massdrop cut corners... That being said, on paper AE-5's headphone out is better and it seems to be the case in practice too.

Would you post the paper result comparison for the O2 and AE-5 showing the noticeably [i.e., audibly] better output and drastic improvement in soundstage?

Thanks.

 

[DJ The Rocket]

Makes me wonder whether or not Massdrop cut corners

This isn't possible in the way that you mean. Maybe the enclosure is really cheap or something, but the specs to build one are exact. When I put one together a couple weeks ago I even looked for ways to substitute cheaper components. It turns out that NwAvGuy did that for us already. There aren't any corners to cut as long as everything is in spec, and if they aren't in spec then you didn't buy an o2, which would have consequences that would require a lawyer to explain. Personally I think the chances of that are effectively zero.

Do you have a multimeter? You can open yours up and follow the testing procedure lined out online. It's really easy (presuming you know how to use your MM already) and it will put any concerns to bed with finality.

I obviously can't have any idea what you're hearing, but have you perused NwAvGuy's subjective vs objective post recently?

AE-5 is noticeably better

No, it is not. You are absolutely wrong here. The AE-5 is different, and therefore not transparent. You may very well like it a million times more, that's perfectly okay. But please don't represent your value judgment as universal truth.

 

[Anarion]

Would you post the paper result comparison for the O2 and AE-5 showing the noticeably [i.e., audibly] better output and drastic improvement in soundstage?

Thanks.

Make your own conclusions (no idea how accurate this is): http://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/amp/creative-sound-blaster-ae-5.php

I can only think that the stereo crosstalk is the main issue.


Creative doesn't mention other specs for the headphone than 0.0009% THD+N, 116dB SNR and 1 Ω output Impedance. They say the following about the amp:

The on-board headphone amplifier is custom-built using discrete transistors and
audiophile-grade WIMA® film/foil capacitors in a dual-amp design to satisfy the
most demanding needs of today’s intense games and high-resolution audio.
Experience the difference of a discrete dual-amp design as each audio channel is individually amplified
to deliver pristine, uncompromised audio. Plus, the high heat resistance of the German-made WIMA
capacitors greatly reduces noise and audio interference. The Xamp’s ultra low 1Ω output impedance
also makes it perfectly capable of driving studio-grade headphones as well as sensitive in-ear
monitors from 16Ω to 600Ω.

This isn't possible in the way that you mean. Maybe the enclosure is really cheap or something, but the specs to build one are exact. When I put one together a couple weeks ago I even looked for ways to substitute cheaper components. It turns out that NwAvGuy did that for us already. There aren't any corners to cut as long as everything is in spec, and if they aren't in spec then you didn't buy an o2, which would have consequences that would require a lawyer to explain. Personally I think the chances of that are effectively zero.

Do you have a multimeter? You can open yours up and follow the testing procedure lined out online. It's really easy (presuming you know how to use your MM already) and it will put any concerns to bed with finality.

I obviously can't have any idea what you're hearing, but have you perused NwAvGuy's subjective vs objective post recently?



No, it is not. You are absolutely wrong here. The AE-5 is different, and therefore not transparent. You may very well like it a million times more, that's perfectly okay. But please don't represent your value judgment as universal truth.

In this case I trust my ears and how the unit I have here sounds. Some kind of defect is always possible or it just doesn't play well with ridiculously efficient and sensitive headphones like HD 595. Even potato would power it to dangerous levels (the main problem is the output impedance).

 

[JakeJack_2008]

Hi,

I've got the JDS Labs O2 amp as a standalone unit which I had bought in Feb 2013.
I have just bought a new Tenergy 9V NiMH Battery 2PK and would like to replace the old batteries
( which were installed in Feb 2013 by JDS Labs).
Since this is the first time that I am planning to install the new batteries I would like to know
what screwdrivers I need to unscrew
- the volume knob
- the front panel


Are there any hints with pics on this site which would guide me through the process?

Thanx,

JJ


P.S.
I am also a proud owner of the JDS Labs ODAC (2013).

 

[DJ The Rocket]

Make your own conclusions (no idea how accurate this is): http://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/report/amp/creative-sound-blaster-ae-5.php

I can only think that the stereo crosstalk is the main issue.


Creative doesn't mention other specs for the headphone than 0.0009% THD+N, 116dB SNR and 1 Ω output Impedance. They say the following about the amp:



In this case I trust my ears and how the unit I have here sounds. Some kind of defect is always possible or it just doesn't play well with ridiculously efficient and sensitive headphones like HD 595. Even potato would power it to dangerous levels (the main problem is the output impedance).

Two things here: at first glance that link with the ae-5 measurements looks good, but did they also measure the o2? I couldn't find it, and comparing measurements across websites is not valid without a specific reason to believe the tests were equivalent. What o2 measurements are you comparing to?

And I'm sorry, but did you really say you "trust your ears" here? I don't know if you're trolling or being serious, but in case you're serious, what makes you think this is a valid area to apply subjective sighted listening impressions? Even if we assume your AE-5 measurements are comparable with, say, the JDS Labs O2 measurements, what makes you so sure the difference is audible in the first place?

 

[Arkady Duntov]

And I'm sorry, but did you really say you "trust your ears" here? I don't know if you're trolling or being serious, but in case you're serious, what makes you think this is a valid area to apply subjective sighted listening impressions? Even if we assume your AE-5 measurements are comparable with, say, the JDS Labs O2 measurements, what makes you so sure the difference is audible in the first place?

While I agree with your conclusions, I don't think it's at all worthwhile to disagree with an "I trust my ears" statement; this is, in my opinion, intended to be a final conclusion which is not amenable to argument or correction.

 

[DJ The Rocket]

@Arkady Duntov In any other forum I would agree with you, effective discussion about most products wouldn't be possible otherwise. But when discussing the O2 or ODAC I think it's fair to use different standards. I think it's fair to say the objective approach is inherent to the very soul of the o2.

I can see where a reasonable person might or might not agree with me on that though.

 

[Nitreb]

From what I can see on my own O2, you'll need a small Allen key (the hexagonal type, in metric presumably) for the volume knob, and a Phillips screwdriver (the "+" type) of suitable size for the casing. There's also the ground cable you'll have to take care of. I think it's behind the front panel, right corner.

Hi,

I've got the JDS Labs O2 amp as a standalone unit which I had bought in Feb 2013.
I have just bought a new Tenergy 9V NiMH Battery 2PK and would like to replace the old batteries
( which were installed in Feb 2013 by JDS Labs).
Since this is the first time that I am planning to install the new batteries I would like to know
what screwdrivers I need to unscrew
- the volume knob
- the front panel


Are there any hints with pics on this site which would guide me through the process?

Thanx,

JJ


P.S.
I am also a proud owner of the JDS Labs ODAC (2013).

 

[DJ The Rocket]

There's also the ground cable you'll have to take care of. I think it's behind the front panel, right corner.

Just in case anyone needs clarification, by "take care of" the ground wire, I think he means loosen it so that the board can slide out. It took me a while to understand that part, but FWIW everything he said is correct.

It also gives me an idea: I'm using a cut component lead for the ground like everyone else probably, but now I'm thinking it'll be worth the effort to switch to a wire with enough slack to let the board slide out just enough to access the batteries without needing to worry about the front panel. I'm surprised I haven't read about anyone doing that in any of the build threads I read, but lots of people must have done it that way

I made mine bone-standard, but after using it for a few weeks I have a list of customizations I mean to do. Besides the ground wire, the front panel power jack bugs me way more than I expected. It makes the front look so horribly cluttered. I may do away with the gain switch as well, 2.5x is perfect for me already. Then I'm going to pull the headphone jack and replace it with a switched jack, to be connected to rear RCA jacks. That way the RCA level will be adjustable with the volume pot, and they'll switch off when headphones are inserted. The power and RCA cables will need to be given enough slack to let the board slide out of course, that detail sounds dangerously easy to forget about.

The O2 works really well in a preamp role, the alps pot I used is really clean, and I got to choose one with a linear taper that I like. I was not a fan of the front-loaded curve used on the Magni 3 pot. I thought the Magni 3 sounded great for my headphones that the o2 isn't powerful enough to drive well, but it's just not as clean sounding, which only really became apparent to me using it as a preamp.

 

[Anarion]

Two things here: at first glance that link with the ae-5 measurements looks good, but did they also measure the o2? I couldn't find it, and comparing measurements across websites is not valid without a specific reason to believe the tests were equivalent. What o2 measurements are you comparing to?

And I'm sorry, but did you really say you "trust your ears" here? I don't know if you're trolling or being serious, but in case you're serious, what makes you think this is a valid area to apply subjective sighted listening impressions? Even if we assume your AE-5 measurements are comparable with, say, the JDS Labs O2 measurements, what makes you so sure the difference is audible in the first place?

The fact that I have both here and I can hear them by myself. You, on the other hand, don't.

I can make my conclusion based on what I actually hear. I wouldn't be so quickly to accuse other people trolls just because you think that O2 is the best sounding, flawless amp on this whole planet. It's not possible to compare measurements made by different tests but you can see some pattern and then I can try validation those with my own ears. Finally, if you have both you can just hear them by yourself.

The difference is definitely there. Soundstage is airier and wider on AE-5 and I'd definitely give the detail advantage to AE-5 too because it affect separation too.

I didn't expect this. It's somewhat similar situation than with Zx - the headphone amp noticeably neutered the soundstage and fine detail. That's not the case with AE-5 so I guess the individually amped channels makes the difference.

Also if you wonder about my hearing, I can hear grasshoppers just fine - even when there's other noises around.

Heck, I could do the testing myself but the problem is that the ADCs that I have available would be bottleneck.

 

[MrMateoHead]

The fact that I have both here and I can hear them by myself. You, on the other hand, don't.

I can make my conclusion based on what I actually hear. I wouldn't be so quickly to accuse other people trolls just because you think that O2 is the best sounding, flawless amp on this whole planet. It's not possible to compare measurements made by different tests but you can see some pattern and then I can try validation those with my own ears. Finally, if you have both you can just hear them by yourself.

The difference is definitely there. Soundstage is airier and wider on AE-5 and I'd definitely give the detail advantage to AE-5 too because it affect separation too.

I didn't expect this. It's somewhat similar situation than with Zx - the headphone amp noticeably neutered the soundstage and fine detail. That's not the case with AE-5 so I guess the individually amped channels makes the difference.

Also if you wonder about my hearing, I can hear grasshoppers just fine - even when there's other noises around.

Heck, I could do the testing myself but the problem is that the ADCs that I have available would be bottleneck.

You can trust your own ears, but I don't have to.

A proper subjectivist would simply have claimed that they preferred the sound of the AE-5 to the O2, then make some claim like, "because the soundstage was better" and "separation" was superior to particular listening tastes, environment, and recording choices. Note that evaluating the DACs is probably as important to the actual amplification sections themselves, since they aren't the same.

I am not saying I disagree with your conclusion so much as I would say that I always wish, in these cases, some actual investigation could be conducted. There is not enough data on the AE-5 for me to determine if it provided superior dynamic range, even lower distortion etc. But its great to see soundblaster taking headphone users seriously. And I am sure I would probably like it also.

In my experience something like adding an ODAC to the O2 sounded superior relative to my laptop. The difference wasn't great, but I am sure it would be measurable, and had I the equipment, I would measure it.

 

[Arkady Duntov]

I can make my conclusion based on what I actually hear. I wouldn't be so quickly to accuse other people trolls just because you think that O2 is the best sounding, flawless amp on this whole planet. It's not possible to compare measurements made by different tests but you can see some pattern and then I can try validation those with my own ears. Finally, if you have both you can just hear them by yourself.

The fact that I have both here and I can hear them by myself. You, on the other hand, don't.

Personal attacks, by anyone, are certainly unwelcome here.

The difference is definitely there. Soundstage is airier and wider on AE-5 and I'd definitely give the detail advantage to AE-5 too because it affect separation too.

It's possible that distortion on the AE-5 sounds like a "detail advantage" and "it [affects] separation too." I don't think this has been disputed or even that it's worth disputing.

 

[Nitreb]

Just in case anyone needs clarification, by "take care of" the ground wire, I think he means loosen it so that the board can slide out. It took me a while to understand that part, but FWIW everything he said is correct.

It also gives me an idea: I'm using a cut component lead for the ground like everyone else probably, but now I'm thinking it'll be worth the effort to switch to a wire with enough slack to let the board slide out just enough to access the batteries without needing to worry about the front panel. I'm surprised I haven't read about anyone doing that in any of the build threads I read, but lots of people must have done it that way

I made mine bone-standard, but after using it for a few weeks I have a list of customizations I mean to do. Besides the ground wire, the front panel power jack bugs me way more than I expected. It makes the front look so horribly cluttered. I may do away with the gain switch as well, 2.5x is perfect for me already. Then I'm going to pull the headphone jack and replace it with a switched jack, to be connected to rear RCA jacks. That way the RCA level will be adjustable with the volume pot, and they'll switch off when headphones are inserted. The power and RCA cables will need to be given enough slack to let the board slide out of course, that detail sounds dangerously easy to forget about.

The O2 works really well in a preamp role, the alps pot I used is really clean, and I got to choose one with a linear taper that I like. I was not a fan of the front-loaded curve used on the Magni 3 pot. I thought the Magni 3 sounded great for my headphones that the o2 isn't powerful enough to drive well, but it's just not as clean sounding, which only really became apparent to me using it as a preamp.

Here's what the ground wire should look on a standard-build O2:

 

[Anarion]

You can trust your own ears, but I don't have to.

A proper subjectivist would simply have claimed that they preferred the sound of the AE-5 to the O2, then make some claim like, "because the soundstage was better" and "separation" was superior to particular listening tastes, environment, and recording choices. Note that evaluating the DACs is probably as important to the actual amplification sections themselves, since they aren't the same.

I am not saying I disagree with your conclusion so much as I would say that I always wish, in these cases, some actual investigation could be conducted. There is not enough data on the AE-5 for me to determine if it provided superior dynamic range, even lower distortion etc. But its great to see soundblaster taking headphone users seriously. And I am sure I would probably like it also.

In my experience something like adding an ODAC to the O2 sounded superior relative to my laptop. The difference wasn't great, but I am sure it would be measurable, and had I the equipment, I would measure it.

Here's are some measurements just to see if my ears work correctly. I wanted to know if these reflect what I actually hear. The DAC on AE-5 is ESS ES9016K2M SABRE32 Ultra.

Full specs of test system:
Intel Core i7-3770K & Thermalright True Spirit | ASUS P8Z77-V | Corsair AX760 | Define R4 | 4x4GB G.SKILL RipjawsX 1600MHz | EVGA GeForce GTX 1070 GAMING ACX 3.0 | Creative Sound BlasterX AE-5 | Samsung 830 128GB & 3x HDD = 5TB | Windows 10 Pro x64

Method:
ASIO playback and record. Main volume was set to 94% to avoid clipping (about 1dB headroom). Line out was 100%. Direct HP mode was used for AE-5 while Direct mode was used for Objective 2.

Things to note: SoundCore3D chip's ADC is the limiting factor for AE-5 and it's pretty safe to assume that AE-5 has even larger advantage in dynamic range and noise level. Not for Objective 2 amp though. Noise level, dynamic range and stereo crosstalk do not fit within the error margin and the AE-5 advantage is rather large. Those basically explain the difference in soundstage and everything really.

 

[raoultrifan]

Hello,

Seems a very good soundcard this AE-5, which is really good for all of us, because raising the bar for such products is very helpful, especially regarding the SNR and the power output for headphones.

However, I remember I did some measurements myself few years ago to my O2 amplifier and I got a bit over 110dB of SNR (default NJM2068 or LME49720 on the input stage, can't remember now); I believe I used 2V RMS sine-waves on the input. O2 is the quietest headphone amplifier I've ever heard, but it can be annoying when paired with neutral and narrow-stage headphones, mostly because of it's sound neutrality (some call it "clinical sound"), but also because it's scene is above average, so some might prefer other amplifiers in their setup. Although, O2 concept is one of the best ever and the fact that I built it myself from scratch increased my love for O2 a lot (subjective, I know). I'm using it with the ODAC and a pair of Beats Solo 2 nearby my bed, just in case I fell like listening some music before sleeping.

Best,
Raul.