[thisbenjamin]

.

 

[00940]

*yawns* It's too late on this side of the Atlantic. I'll maybe answer tomorrow.

Just consider this: the Altmann ADC creates digital signals which are not conform to the CD format. No recording studio in the world would use such ADC (and its ugly noise floor !). A commercial DAC is made to play as faithfully as possible what the recording industry produce.

 

[Ranchu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thisbenjamin /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're missing the entire point of the test Goldfish. None the less, I'm done..

Bye.

 

[Ranchu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 00940 /img/forum/go_quote.gif *yawns* It's too late on this side of the Atlantic. I'll maybe answer tomorrow. Just consider this: the Altmann ADC creates digital signals which are not conform to the CD format. No recording studio in the world would use such ADC (and its ugly noise floor !). A commercial DAC is made to play as faithfully as possible what the recording industry produce.

Yes, noise floors a problem. Not sure about the rest...

Thanks again, and sleep well!

 

[joe_cool]

In a limited context Ranchu and his citations have a point. "Out of band" signals will cause unusual responses from OS DACs. Many are aware of the intense compression and related clipping in most of modern musical CD recordings.

The opposite point is that these things (including the "step" waveform demonstration) violate the specifications and standards of CD audio (red book) production.

 

[anetode]

Ranchu, in all seriousness, I thought your link to the spruce-dac was a joke. As in I read it, thought you had a sly sense of humor, and enjoyed the crazy. But you must have written it, for I cannot think of anyone else with technical knowledge using that as a reference source. "The Effect of Lacquer" section in particular reminds me of the Monty Python how do you tell a witch skit.

Sir Bedevere: There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.
Peasant 1: Are there? Oh well, tell us.
Sir Bedevere: Tell me. What do you do with witches?
Peasant 1: Burn them.
Sir Bedevere: And what do you burn, apart from witches?
Peasant 1: More witches.
Peasant 2: Wood.
Sir Bedevere: Good. Now, why do witches burn?
Peasant 3: ...because they're made of... wood?
Sir Bedevere: Good. So how do you tell whether she is made of wood?
Peasant 1: Build a bridge out of her.
Sir Bedevere: But can you not also build bridges out of stone?
Peasant 1: Oh yeah.
Sir Bedevere: Does wood sink in water?
Peasant 1: No, no, it floats!... It floats! Throw her into the pond!
Sir Bedevere: No, no. What else floats in water?
Peasant 1: Bread.
Peasant 2: Apples.
Peasant 3: Very small rocks.
Peasant 1: Cider.
Peasant 2: Gravy.
Peasant 3: Cherries.
Peasant 1: Mud.
Peasant 2: Churches.
Peasant 3: Lead! Lead!
King Arthur: A Duck.
Sir Bedevere: ...Exactly. So, logically...
Peasant 1: If she weighed the same as a duck... she's made of wood.
Sir Bedevere: And therefore...
Peasant 2: ...A witch!

The kindest analysis I can come up with is that the site is devoted to a hobbyist attempting to create a simplified a/d d/a process for a test tone, with mixed results.

 

[Ranchu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by anetode /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ranchu, in all seriousness, I thought your link to the spruce-dac was a joke. As in I read it, thought you had a sly sense of humor, and enjoyed the crazy. But you must have written it, for I cannot think of anyone else with technical knowledge using that as a reference source. "The Effect of Lacquer" section in particular reminds me of the Monty Python how do you tell a witch skit. The kindest analysis I can come up with is that the site is devoted to a hobbyist attempting to create a simplified a/d d/a process for a test tone, with mixed results.

More of the same.

"Ad hominem abusive (also called argumentum ad personam) usually and most notoriously involves insulting or belittling one's opponent, but can also involve pointing out factual but ostensible character flaws or actions which are irrelevant to the opponent's argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and even true negative facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions.

This tactic is frequently employed as a propaganda tool among politicians who are attempting to influence the voter base in their favor through an appeal to emotion rather than by logical means, especially when their own position is logically weaker than their opponent's."

Ad hominem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you for playing.

 

[anetode]

While you're at it, look up the entry for "solipsism" and "fail"

 

[DoYouRight]

quit feeding the rabid squirrel. Lets get back to topic. Now as I havent heard say a MDHT Labs Havana, many enjoy it on par with other OS dacs in the 1000+ range. Is that DAC really NOS? Or just a marketing gimmick?

 

[thisbenjamin]

.

 

[thisbenjamin]

.

 

[Ranchu]

So, do you like to eat fish sticks?

 

[Dan Lavry]

-This has thread has gone nuts.

Anyone qualified and equipped with proper gear can look at such plots. In fact, I have pro audio techs making such tests every work day on numerous DA's. We have been doing it for years, and our tests are far more extensive and accurate.

And then there are other serious companies that make converters and they also do such tests and much more as a matter of course. And then there are the IC makers, companies with respectable reputations that tests each production run. At Lavry we test each and every unit extensively. Test plots of various gear is all over the place, from IC makers, gear makers, CREDIBLE gear reviewers... It is not like that one guy did such an unusual thing and discovered something of value. It is a sad joke.

I couple of folks with hobby and with little knowhow is not enough to turn reality around. Deep knowhow and expertize take much learning and years of hand on. Hutspa is easy to come by.

A competent hobbyist with a good AD, DA, and scope can see that an OS DA output tracks the input. Once you align the time between the input trace and the output trace, and match the amplitudes, you can not tell them apart, not even with a mediocre DA, because a scope is a 1% (or so) device which is only 40dB measurement accuracy. Even at .1% you have only 60dB. To really see the difference one needs gear that is far better then a scope.

At 44.1KHz with a NOS there is an amplitude drop at around 20KHz. If the drop is around 30% you have -3dB at 20KHz. Expect more then that if there is a filter. Otherwise you will see tons of high frequency energy (steps are high frequency. When you feed a complex wave (not just a sine wave) the NOS falls apart in terms of wave shape, because it attenuates the high frequency harmonics and most often it also causes non linear phase shift at the higher harmonics. That means poor reproduction thus less transparency. Then comes the high frequency image energy riding on the NOS wave...

Regards
Dan Lavry
Lavry Engineering

 

[tubes]

The sad thing is, regardless of technology many recordings leave a lot to be desired so even with a well designed dac, garbage in garbage out.

 

[DoYouRight]

True tubes.

Here is a great point, why would Dan Lavry make a OS Dac, if NOS were better? The designs and chips he uses are not cheaper than a NOS chip and IV so why would he waste his time and company let alone Name which has been a brand on something inherently inferior?