[tubes]

Really! What makes you think I would be interested?

 

[thisbenjamin]

.

 

[00940]

Ranchu: this gets perfectly ridiculous. Mr Lavry's points have nothing to do with commercial interest. They're common knowledge to anyone with some proper education in the field. He is rightly outraged when you put in doubt his competence, and through him the competence of countless engineers, on the basis of a website which is nothing but empty air.

Do you realize how unbalanced this debate is ?

On the NOS side, a few audiophiles and some small business happy to exploit them. Perfect nobodies in terms of sales.

On the oversampling side you have.... well all the rest. Including all the serious names in the music industry, the IC manufacturers (TI, Cirrus, AKM, Maxim, AD) and armies of engineers. And they all are in a fierce competition.

But conspiracy theories are fun, aren't they ? Of course, all those brilliant minds employed by TI have decided to ignore the obvious advantages of NOS and stick with oversampling out of laziness ? Well, that's just

I'm out of here.

 

[thisbenjamin]

.

 

[Ranchu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 00940 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ranchu: this gets perfectly ridiculous. Mr Lavry's points have nothing to do with commercial interest. They're common knowledge to anyone with some proper education in the field. He is rightly outraged when you put in doubt his competence, and through him the competence of countless engineers, on the basis of a website which is nothing but empty air. I'm out of here.

Riiiight...

To clarify, it was his idea that I questioned his competence, or the competence of his vaunted pantheon of compatriots, then he indulges himself in a load of outrage at his own mischaracterization of what I have said. It's puffery, a rhetorical misdirection. Simple stuff, really.

If you care to look back at thread carefully, I think you will see that, no biggie though.

Take care, I have enjoyed your posts.

 

[Jon L]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thisbenjamin /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ranchu, i'm done. I've lost enough time and effort here. Have fun with your head in the sand. /unsubscribes /ignore Ranchu

Hey, I just stumbled onto this thread and was able to pass time and amuse myself with the completely predictable outcome. Thanks for the diversion, and what took you so long?

 

[KingStyles]

Isnt this thread about whether the marketing of nos dacs is bs and not whether os dacs are superior? Has anyone actually established what the marketing of nos dacs is? Its funny that we have 15 pages of talking about formulas and dac facts relating on how os dacs have better filtering due to upsampling and how they are more transparent with better detail etc, etc. Maybe you should cut and paste the last 15 pages in the IS OS DAC MARKETING B.S. forum because all the evidence provided is for the typical descriptions of os dac marketing. I believe the marketing for nos dacs usally states things like this.
Quote:

I have found very similar 'sound' from all the NOS DACS… smooth and organic, warmer than colder, richer than leaner, darker than lighter, less presence or resolution than more… etc.

I could be wrong but these are sound qualities measured by the ear and not by instuments. These qualities are a accurate description of my nos dac determined by my ears. Almost all marketing for nos dacs is about different characteristics of sound and not about specs or having better resolution or transparency than os dacs. These characteristics are easily obtainable by my nos dac. If the marketing is along the lines of what I posted above, than nos dacs are being marketed correctly. If the nos dacs manufactures or hype machine says the nos dacs are the best in resolution and transparency and frequency extension, then the last 15 pages would be valid, but I havent seen them marketed that way. Maybe the op could chime in on what marketing he had in mind when he posted this forum.
I look forward to listening to your lavery setup and it will be an interesting comparison, but I do not plan on opening up my dac. There are plenty of pictures of it on the web already and my understanding is all the chips have been wiped clean so it wouldnt do any good anyways.

 

[Ranchu]

First rate perception, KingStyles.

 

[ironmine]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingStyles /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just a question, Who here has heard a nos dac that has posted. I know dan has, but who else has that is on the os wagon?

I have April Music Stello DA100 DAC which has two modes: the bypass mode and the upsamping (24/192) mode. I guess, when I operate the DAC in the bypass mode, it becomes a NOS DAC (maybe I am technically wrong in this assumption). In any case, here is a picture where I tried to reflect the difference in soundstage, as I perceive it:

The other difference is that the bypass mode is a bit more transparent and has noticeably a deeper and louder bass. The 24/192 mode is more laid-back and, for some reason, it is less tiresome for my brain and ears. In the bypass mode, I don't like the drum and guitars to be so unrealistically near to me, they sound closer to me than the vocalist. I don't like it.

 

[joe_cool]

Not meaning to be critical ironmine, but upsampling is done BEFORE the DAC and oversampling is done BY the DAC. Basically oversampling is done to move the digital artifacts to a higher frequency, after which they are much easier to separate from the actual audio information in the analog world.

Your observations about soundstage variations due to upsampling in the DA100 is very interesting. In my experience upsampling (using the computer) does make a difference in the perceived sound but that is another topic.

Oh, and thanks to all the posters who managed to get through this heated discussion without disrespecting our forum mates. I wouldn't want everyone to be alike and agree on everything!

 

[moonboy403]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KingStyles /img/forum/go_quote.gif Maybe the op could chime in on what marketing he had in mind when he posted this forum.

Before I started this thread, I read the thread in the sound science forum that I originally linked to and I was shocked at what I read about NOS dacs.

If I'm haven't heard either NOS or OS DACs and then I read about these facts about both technology, I would be (and I was) under the impression that NOS is a hopeless technology in which it cannot possibly sound any good. However, given that I've had the Mdht Labs Paradisea 3+(NOS), iBasso D2 Boa(OS), Nuforce Icon(OS), Keces DA151,131.1(OS), and Electrocompaniet ECD1(OS). According to these facts that Dan wrote, I should have felt that the Paradisea is a piece of junk when I hear it, but that wasn't the case as I've found it to be an upgrade in contrast to all those dacs mentioned with the exception of the ECD1. In short, I know that these numbers and facts simply didn't really relate to what I hear.

That's why I was curious as to how others view NOS DACs.

 

[tubes]

Hi Moon, I had a Paradisea+ and enjoyed it very much I just got fed up with chasing after tubes. Then tried the Valab, not quite as rich in the bass as the + but more detailed IMO, after some mods it made a nice upgrade, and cheap as chips to boot.

 

[KingStyles]

Quote:

If I'm haven't heard either NOS or OS DACs and then I read about these facts about both technology, I would be (and I was) under the impression that NOS is a hopeless technology in which it cannot possibly sound any good. However, given that I've had the Mdht Labs Paradisea 3+(NOS), iBasso D2 Boa(OS), Nuforce Icon(OS), Keces DA151,131.1(OS), and Electrocompaniet ECD1(OS). According to these facts that Dan wrote, I should have felt that the Paradisea is a piece of junk when I hear it, but that wasn't the case as I've found it to be an upgrade in contrast to all those dacs mentioned with the exception of the ECD1. In short, I know that these numbers and facts simply didn't really relate to what I hear.

It sounds like someone that just likes the qualities that a nos dac exhibits and also realizing what has been discussed here that the specs of a os dac are usaly superior. He never stated that it was technically better according to stats. He just realized it sounded better to his ears. To each there own. Nos dacs are just a different flavor that some people like and some dont. I would agree with Dan that you wont find a nos dac in a recording studio because they need the most analytical, detailed, and transparent sound they can get to dissect and edit the audio. Those qualities are the strengths of the os family. I know personally that I wouldnt think that I would want to listen to my music on a studio quality setup.The appeal of completely neutral, transparent, overly detailed presentation does not appeal to my personal taste. The nos dac is for the average audiophile who just wants to enjoy there music to a more natural presentation. It doesnt mean that an os dac cant do this either. Its just a nos dac is a different flavor like tubes or ss amps, beyer or sennheiser, os or nos. It does what it does and you like it or you dont.

 

[tubes]

Kingstyles, very true. I've had the Benchmark Dac in my system and never enjoyed the music, I just wanted to get up and shut the system off, nowhere near the sound of live music. The NOS dac that I have let me relax and enjoy the music once again. In the end you listen to music not a scope or specs.. I couldn't listen to the Benchmark just because it measures better.

 

[Sandy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 00940 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ranchu: this gets perfectly ridiculous. Mr Lavry's points have nothing to do with commercial interest. They're common knowledge to anyone with some proper education in the field. He is rightly outraged when you put in doubt his competence, and through him the competence of countless engineers, on the basis of a website which is nothing but empty air. Do you realize how unbalanced this debate is ? On the NOS side, a few audiophiles and some small business happy to exploit them. Perfect nobodies in terms of sales. On the oversampling side you have.... well all the rest. Including all the serious names in the music industry, the IC manufacturers (TI, Cirrus, AKM, Maxim, AD) and armies of engineers. And they all are in a fierce competition. But conspiracy theories are fun, aren't they ? Of course, all those brilliant minds employed by TI have decided to ignore the obvious advantages of NOS and stick with oversampling out of laziness ? Well, that's just I'm out of here.

I don't think that the picture is as simple as you state.

NOS playback is implemented by a few hi-end manufacturers as well as the cheap Chinese market and DIY fringe.

The Hi-end products like the Zanden and Audio Note are rediculously priced. They have however been very favorably reviewed. The long time and highly regarded British reviewer, Martin Colloms, has these products very highly rated in his listings:

HIFICRITIC, audio review magazine, hi fi critic

(The higher the number - the better!)

Nearly all modern DAC chips have filtering built into them, so I am not sure that it would be possible to make new NOS machines other than using old chip stock.

OS is the accepted method for digital replay, and certainly gives great measured performance. That does not mean that there is no merit in NOS