[EdipisReks]

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Originally Posted by DarkAngel Wait, wait, wait.......time for reality check here! First two NIN albums are very much like Ministry "rape" and "mind" albums, don't make excuses for Trent everyone has gottens "ideas" from others, no shame in that. There would be no NIN without Ministry. Second nothing and I mean nothing NIN has done to date is anywhere near as creative or original as Skinny Puppy Vivisect/Too Dark Park period work, it will be avante guard 20 years from now, Ogre practically invented a new language for this.......Trent still must bow before his ancient masters. Edipis you of all people must admit the obvious truth............

hey, now. i'm as big a Skinny Puppy fan as anyone else, but i don't think that they are super original. i mean, take Kraftwerk, put the songs in a diminished key, "sing" about animal testing, and growl and you have most of Skinny Puppy's work. that is a bit of an exageration, but it isn't that far from the truth. i also disagree with the idea that NIN takes after Ministry. to me early NIN is much closer to KMFDM, but even closer to Depeche Mode. i also think that Trent's work is fairly original, at least after he found his legs with Broken and The Downward Spiral. the combination of IDM beats and quasi-orchestral stylings in many of his songs is quite different from anyone else. i also think that The Fragile, as a single work, stands as a masterpiece and when take as a whole is about as original in total content as music can be nowadays. i think we will just have to agree to disagree.

[edit: when talking about the "originality" of Skinny Puppy vs. NIN, i think i am unfortunately in a position where i have to put down one group i love to defend another. i really, really, really, really like Skinny Puppy, and i totally agree that VIVIsectVI and Too Dark Park are amazing albums (i actually really like all of their work until the latest album, which i merely think is "ok"). having said that, i really think that Skinny Puppy is just as derivative as NIN but Trent's sources are more obvious than Skinny Puppy's because Trent was working in a genre that was well established by the time he started (though i'm not sure that Trent was really trying to be "Industrial", as Pretty Hate Machine and the early demos do sound a hell of a lot of Depeche Mode to me). Skinny Puppy, to me, is really just a dark turn for the avante garde synth coming out of Europe in the 1970's. this music is fairly obscure in America (and is probably pretty obscure in Europe, now), so it seems that Skinny Puppy just came out of nowhere. i think that this makes the work of Nivek Ogre and cEvin Key seem artificially more original than it really is.]

 

[EdipisReks]

Quote:

Originally Posted by virometal When did NIN become Industrial? I guess if Spin says so...and whats up with the NIN/Skinny Puppy references? That is kind of like comparing Orbital to Autechre in my book.

i don't think "Industrial Music" means what you think it does. Industrial is a very wide and varied genre, encompassing everything from EBM to FuturePop to IDM.

 

[BlackJackSkanz]

Wow, I made what I thought was a rather prosaic statement and BOOM!

Well, I don't want to drag the point at touch as it borders on crapping on a thread.

But I do want to state my point of view a little more clearly.

One, making the distinction of NIN/KFMDM being more dance music/IDM based and Ministry/Skinny Puppy as more being Industrial doesn't wash for me for the simple fact Industrial is a form of dance music. Also, I don't follow your linking of KMFDM and NIN.

I am amazed that you don't see the sonic/artistic link between Land of Rape and Honey/TMIATTTT and Wish/The Downward Spiral. Granted there are other enfluences such as Coil/Aphix Twin, etc but the inspiration is pretty blatant. If anything he followed the trend that every other industrial band of the period followed. When Pretty Hate Machine was released it fit in the sound of most industrial bands like Front 242, Frontline Assembly, Bigod 20, etc which was a softer more synth-pop sound (i.e. Depech Mode on a bender). Ministry/Skinny Puppy sounded like nothing else around at the time. In the end their sound was more influential and by the 91-92 every other band copied that sound including Trent.

The sad thing is that it became entrenched and defined in the greater pop culture as "industrial" so that a lot of the experimential themes died so that by 1996 in my opinion industrial died.

 

[EdipisReks]

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Originally Posted by BlackJackSkanz Ministry/Skinny Puppy sounded like nothing else around at the time.

patently untrue, you just had to go outside the genre to find their influences.
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In the end their sound was more influential and by the 91-92 every other band copied that sound including Trent.

except for the fact that NIN really didn't sound like them that much.
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The sad thing is that it became entrenched and defined in the greater pop culture as "industrial" so that a lot of the experimential themes died so that by 1996 in my opinion industrial died.

debatable.

 

[minya]

Jesus, Throbbing Gristle are rolling around in their not-yet-occupied graves right now.

 

[BlackJackSkanz]

Why? I don't think anyone was arguing the industrial started with any of of the bands mentioned. Obviously Genesis P-Orridge/Throbbing Gristtle got the whole thing rolling.

...or at least I hope no one is going to argue that point.

"No, it all goes back to Gyorgy Ligeti and other expermental composures of the 50/60s with their exporation of disonate compositions..."

 

[chadbang]

Where the hell is the sample on the page? Dammit! Fantastic news about a new NIN release. Reznor is one of my top five musical artists. Sometimes he pulls of real musical genius. I really liken this approach to music somewhere between industrial/classical (very Wagner influenced) with a touch of broadway (yes, believe it or not. Reznor biggest role in high school was playing Prof Harold Hill in "The Music Man).

RE: Fragile
Yes, I love this album too and don't in anyway find it weak. A "sonic landscape" as my favorite music critic from the Baltimore Sun called it. But I still contend that the unused tracks that made it onto the "Things Fall Apart" album contain much of the real brillance from those sessions.

Those SACD and 5.1 mixes that are announced are going to make me get a surround system. Freakin Reznor in the studio doing those are going to make for an amazing experience.

 

[greyghost]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadbang RE: Fragile Yes, I love this album too and don't in anyway find it weak. A "sonic landscape" as my favorite music critic from the Baltimore Sun called it. But I still contend that the unused tracks that made it onto the "Things Fall Apart" album contain much of the real brillance from those sessions.

I totally agree. However, I think the songs off "Things Fall Apart" have a different feel from those on the fragile, and perhaps thats why they were left off of the fragile. I hope he brings some of the flow from Things Fall Apart to With Teeth.

 

[chadbang]

Yes, you're right! They're a little flashier and upbeat. That's probably why they were omitted.

 

[BlackJackSkanz]

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Originally Posted by DarkAngel I have very low expectations for any new NIN album......... Interesting that Trent's pal Al Jourgensen's new Ministry album "House of Mole" is actually very good stuff...

Funny, I had not listened to Ministry since ΚΕΦΑΛΗΞΘ. I just read this travesty on Discogs:

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Ministry's masterpiece is considered "ÊÅÖÁËÇÎÈ" (1992), a very dark, powerful and violent album, where the band experiments a wide range of combining thrash metal with techno, industrial and noise. The following records have progressively abandoned the experimental side.

Hunhh? The Mind Is A Terrible Thing To Taste was the peak and "ÊÅÖÁËÇÎÈ" was good but on the downward slop.

Anyway, I checked out the newer stuff but I agree with your statement "Al Jourgensen"'s Ministry because to me without Chris Connelly and Paul Barker it is not Ministry.

Well after all the this talk about 'Fragile', I gave it another listen and I guess there is no hope for me because I just could not stand it. Not because I wanted Pretty Hate Machine but because it just confirmed my view the Reznor is an one trick musical pony. Also, I forgot what I least liked about his music, they guy is a really whiner. Right now I would put in class of the Morrissey dirty diapers category (yes, I am being a little harsh)

To me he is not even in the category of a Martin Atkins, F.M. Einheit, or Genesis P-Orridge.

 

[gloco]

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Originally Posted by minya http://www.nin.com/current/index.html !!!! The sample is amazing. I guess 'sample' is a misnomer. 'Teaser' is more appropriate. STILL.... it sounds incredible. I CANNOT WAIT.

Ok...i listened to this sample, or teaser, and i don't get what you're hearing...its nothing substantial.

 

[greyghost]

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Originally Posted by gloco Ok...i listened to this sample, or teaser, and i don't get what you're hearing...its nothing substantial.

You must not be a big NIN fan, cause I kept playing that sample over and over. There's a lot of layers of sound in it, typical Reznor.

 

[gloco]

Quote:

Originally Posted by greyghost You must not be a big NIN fan, cause I kept playing that sample over and over. There's a lot of layers of sound in it, typical Reznor.

(looks over at his collection of NIN bootlegs)

Maybe i listened to the wrong sample?

Or maybe what i heard was a disappointment?

Regardless of the fact, i didn't care for what i heard. However, i usually hate teasers and samples from upcoming albums. I'd rather just buy the album when it's released and listen to it in its entirety.