[OBCblackhawk]

I want to get into some high quality headphones that will last me 5-10 years without spending an arm and a leg. I listen to a very wide range of music and tend to like audio deep and dark, I normally tune down high end as it usually sounds piercing and annoying to me. I like to do alot of gaming so i will be using the PC exclusively as my source. I listen to a gamut of electronic music, hard rock, metal, classical, industrial basically a little bit of everything except rap.

I do not want to spend more than 500 USD for everything, just wanted to make that clear.

I've selected the Beyerdynamic DT770pro/80 or the Sennheiser HD650's which I found a great deal on. Combined with the HT Omega Claro Halo soundcard for its amp and high quality sound for the buck. I listened to the DT770's first hand and liked the way they sounded but haven't had the same chance with HD650's.

I'm not entirely sure the HD650's would be worth the extra 180 over the DT770's. I am utterly confused by all the amps out there and blown away by the cost of some. I guess my main concern is the HT omega and its ability to provide quality sound rather than going with an external amp.

 

[rjp]

Never having heard HD650s, I can't vouch for or against them. However, I'm quite happy with my DT770 Pro/80s being fed from my EMU 0404 USB. If your soundcard has enough juice to drive them, you should find them very enjoyable.

 

[OBCblackhawk]

Right now I dont even have a dedicated sound card so I am completely open to suggestions. I'm not a highly discerning listener but I would really enjoy a quality setup that I know will last. I'm also using sennheiser PC150's since I do alot of gaming but like I said I want a quality listening experience.

 

[Brighten]

If you're a fan of heavy metal and rock you'll need to try some Grados... you wouldn't need an amp either.

 

[OBCblackhawk]

how is the e-mu 0404 compared to the HT omega or any other dedicated soundcard. Since I do alot of gaming I'm not so sure either of these options are perfect. What about the xonar DX and a cheap desktop amp to go with it?

 

[iriverdude]

I don't think Sennheisers are ideal for moden fast music, they're a bit too laidback. It think ideal for jazz, soul. I have not heard 650's but I have used 500 line. Sennheisers need dedicated headphone amp.

Grado RS-1 may just be in your budget.

 

[TopPop]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iriverdude /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't think Sennheisers are ideal for moden fast music, they're a bit too laidback. It think ideal for jazz, soul.

I would agree with this for the HD600: not the best for fast music, but ideal for jazz, blues, folk, acoustic, etc.

 

[Alydon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBCblackhawk /img/forum/go_quote.gif how is the e-mu 0404 compared to the HT omega or any other dedicated soundcard. Since I do alot of gaming I'm not so sure either of these options are perfect. What about the xonar DX and a cheap desktop amp to go with it?

I can't comment on the 0404 since I've not heard it. However, for you I'd suggest staying away from the Xonar DX given your price range. The Xonar DX is a great card for the price, but you'd be better off buying the Xonar Essence STX for $200 since it is a much better source and comes with a built-in headphone amp (the same TPA6120A2 driver as the Claro Halo, actually) that is comparable to dedicated HP amps costing $200-$300.

So, from what you posted so far it looks like you want something that:

• is <$500
• has a deep, dark sound that is not too bright
• sounds good with rock/electronica/metal/industrial and other fast/energetic music
• also sounds good w/ classical where a big, clear soundstage and good instrument separation is key (IMO)
• is good for gaming so you want a big soundstage and good 3D positioning
• is a sound card with a headphone amp built-in for a good price/performance ratio
• will last you several years
• sounds similar to the DT770's since you liked their sound

Based on this I'd recommend you get either the DT770/80's ($200 - closed headphones), the DT770/250's 2005 edition ($200) or DT990/250's 2005 version ($250 - open headphones), and a Xonar Essence STX ($200) for a sound card. The would set you back about $400-$450 total depending on which of the headphones you bought.

The Senn 650's wouldn't be a good headphone option for you since for the price they wouldn't be that much of an upgrade given the money you'd have left over to buy your source/amp. They really need high-end equipment driving them to sound their best (EDIT: Though the Essence STX reportedly drives them just fine. But then, as others have said they do have a laid back sound so they still may not be the best choice for your music type.).

Grado's wouldn't be a good choice for you either since they tend to have a lot of treble emphasis and that might annoy you too much. Plus their soundstage isn't very good for gaming purposes compared to other headphone options (like the DT770/990's).

For sound cards, if you browse through the big Essence STX thread here you'll find that for sound quality it's beating out every single sound card people have compared it to so far (including a couple of X-Fi's, the Auzentech Prelude, all other Xonars, EMU 1212m, Claro+, and ESI Juli@). It's also a great gaming card, something that can't be said as much of the 0404 or Claro Halo.

The only downside to the STX is that it's designed for 2-channel (stereo) listening, so if you decide to use 5.1 speakers down the line you'd either need to get digital speakers like the Logitech z5500's, or hook the STX up to an external receiver via its RCA outs.

So yeah, if I were you I'd go with the 770's (I'd recommend you get the 2005 version since I understand they sound more balanced and refined than the 2003 version. They have grey & silver earcups instead of black ones like the 2003 version) and an Essence STX.

 

[OBCblackhawk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alydon /img/forum/go_quote.gif I can't comment on the 0404 since I've not heard it. However, for you I'd suggest staying away from the Xonar DX given your price range. The Xonar DX is a great card for the price, but you'd be better off buying the Xonar Essence STX for $200 since it is a much better source and comes with a built-in headphone amp (the same TPA6120A2 driver as the Claro Halo, actually) that is comparable to dedicated HP amps costing $200-$300. So, from what you posted so far it looks like you want something that: is <$500 has a deep, dark sound that is not too bright sounds good with rock/electronica/metal/industrial and other fast/energetic music also sounds good w/ classical where a big, clear soundstage and good instrument separation is key (IMO) is good for gaming so you want a big soundstage and good 3D positioning is a sound card with a headphone amp built-in for a good price/performance ratio will last you several years sounds similar to the DT770's since you liked their sound Based on this I'd recommend you get either the DT770/80's ($200 - closed headphones), the DT770/250's 2005 edition ($200) or DT990/250's 2005 version ($250 - open headphones), and a Xonar Essence STX ($200) for a sound card. The would set you back about $400-$450 total depending on which of the headphones you bought. The Senn 650's wouldn't be a good headphone option for you since for the price they wouldn't be that much of an upgrade given the money you'd have left over to buy your source/amp. They really need high-end equipment driving them to sound their best (EDIT: Though the Essence STX reportedly drives them just fine. But then, as others have said they do have a laid back sound so they still may not be the best choice for your music type.). Grado's wouldn't be a good choice for you either since they tend to have a lot of treble emphasis and that might annoy you too much. Plus their soundstage isn't very good for gaming purposes compared to other headphone options (like the DT770/990's). For sound cards, if you browse through the big Essence STX thread here you'll find that for sound quality it's beating out every single sound card people have compared it to so far (including a couple of X-Fi's, the Auzentech Prelude, all other Xonars, EMU 1212m, Claro+, and ESI Juli@). It's also a great gaming card, something that can't be said as much of the 0404 or Claro Halo. The only downside to the STX is that it's designed for 2-channel (stereo) listening, so if you decide to use 5.1 speakers down the line you'd either need to get digital speakers like the Logitech z5500's, or hook the STX up to an external receiver via its RCA outs. So yeah, if I were you I'd go with the 770's (I'd recommend you get the 2005 version since I understand they sound more balanced and refined than the 2003 version. They have grey & silver earcups instead of black ones like the 2003 version) and an Essence STX.

Wow, awesome thorough advice, I really really appreciate that. The xonar STX does look like an excellent card for me since it has an amp built in and more gaming orientated features. PCI-E is a bonus as well since putting a PCI card in interferes with my crossfire setup. One concern about it tho why did they decide to use the AV100 rather than the AV200 on this high end card? What are the key differences between the two? Again, thank you for your input.

I wasn't seriously considering the HD650 but I found it for 320 shipped and for the price if they were recommended I might have considered them. I thought since they had a darker sound I might like them, but I haven't been able to test them first hand.

 

[Alydon]

Sure thing, glad I could help.

The 650's are supposed to be incredible headphones. I was just concerned you'd not be able to find a decent source and amp and still be able to stay under your budget. However, many people in the Essence STX thread have said that the 650's sound great on the STX, so if you're willing to go over your budget ($520 total) that'd be a good option too. Another option would be the less expensive HD600, which a number of people still prefer over the 650's.

Also, the difference between the AV100 and AV200 is clouded in mystery since Asus hasn't released any specific specs on either chip. All evidence I've found points to the differences being negligible, though. Officially, both chipsets are "tweaked" versions of a CMI8xxx chip, though they've never said what those "tweaks" were, and reports of the specific Cmedia model they used varies depending on where on the web you read about it.

Usually it's the CMI8788, though. So the short answer is: there is no difference.

Now for the long answer. From what I can tell, rumour has it that Asus bought up all of the CMI8788 chips last year and named them the AV200. This they used on their early Xonar cards. I think the AV100 is based on the CMI8787, which seems to be the successor to the 8788 since the 8788 hasn't even been listed on cmedia's website for a couple of months now and I believe it has been discontinued.

I looked at the spec sheets for both chipsets on cmedia's website, and the specs are identical. In fact, the only difference I could find between the two is that DTS technology is listed twice in the 8788's manual but only once in the 8787's. Other than that everything else is the same, down to the letter on most pages...

So I guess the long answer would also be: there is no difference.

 

[obobskivich]

alydon, have you used any of the hp's youre suggesting? just curious, given that you've gone back and forth on the HD 650 issue, dodged Grados, and can't make up your mind on Beyers (and give very optimistic pricing guesses)


@ the person talking about "hd 650's are bad for modern music, I've used the 500 series", you realize theres massive differences between the two? as in, different enclosure geometry, drivers, wiring, acoustic properties, etc (barely could be argued to have a "house sound", and thats a faint arguement at best)

as far as "CMI8788 out of production", how then do HT Omega, Auzen, and Razer manage to produce soundcards? just curious if you can explain that one

there was an actual difference between 8788 and 8787, I do remember seeing some C-Media roadmap a year or two ago that showed some minor feature the 88 had (we're talking "no difference" type feature though, enough to market basically, iirc its that it has the 8ch 24/96 and 2ch 16/48 output vs 8ch 24/96 of the 8787, or something along that line)

also, if he's liking the Claro Halo, why push the Xonar? both are excellent choices for the op to consider, and the chip used is not found in $200 hp amps, its found in $300-$800 hp amps, these amps also have a much more capable power supply stage than the PC can provide, but its fundamentally the same (this is a positive)


to the OP, the hp amp soundcard is a good route imho, or a USB solution like the 0404, either way its around $150-$200 for that


hp wise, you really need to audition some stuff for yourself, in your remaining price range (roughly $300) I see a number of options:

Grado SR 325i (or 325is)
Sennheiser HD-600
Sennheiser HD-595
Beyerdynamic DT-770
Beyerdynamic DT-880
Denon AH-D2000
AKG K701
AKG K601
Ultrasone HFI-2200 ULE
Sony MDR-F1
Sony MDR-SA5000
Audio Technica ATH-A900
Audio Technica ATH-AD1000 (would be a bit of a strech)
Audio Technica ATH-W1000 (again a bit of a strech)
Kenwood KH-K1000 (also a strech)

if you like the DT770's, go with them, don't blindly buy something else if you've already found something you like, this isn't about "being better", its about enjoying the music (or gaming, in your case)

 

[Alydon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by obobskivich /img/forum/go_quote.gif alydon, have you used any of the hp's youre suggesting? just curious, given that you've gone back and forth on the HD 650 issue, dodged Grados, and can't make up your mind on Beyers (and give very optimistic pricing guesses)

Yes, I have owned the HD580, SR325, and DT990, and have listened a moderate amount (say, 10+ hours each) to the SR60, SR80, RS1, and HD600. I haven't heard the 770's but the OP likes them and they've been reported to be good for gaming several times on these boards so it seemed safe to suggest something that he already likes the sound of. I also haven't heard the 650's, but that's why I said they are "supposed to be" incredible cans. I understand that they're close enough to the HD580/600 that my support of other peoples' opinions in this thread seemed somewhat sound.

And the prices I pulled from froogle right before I typed that post. Nothing "optimistic" or "guesses" about them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by obobskivich /img/forum/go_quote.gif @ the person talking about "hd 650's are bad for modern music, I've used the 500 series", you realize theres massive differences between the two? as in, different enclosure geometry, drivers, wiring, acoustic properties, etc (barely could be argued to have a "house sound", and thats a faint arguement at best) as far as "CMI8788 out of production", how then do HT Omega, Auzen, and Razer manage to produce soundcards? just curious if you can explain that one

That I don't know. Perhaps they bought a large stock of them and haven't run out yet? Auzentech no longer uses cmedia chipsets, and most of the few stores that even list the Razer Baracuda show it as out of stock. And it's quite possible that HT Omega bought a big enough lot that they can still produce cards with what they have. But it is, like I said, just a rumour. However, I find it curious that all traces of the CMI8788 have been removed from both of C-Media's websites in light of the "exclusive deal w/ Asus" rumours that have been going around for months now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by obobskivich /img/forum/go_quote.gif there was an actual difference between 8788 and 8787, I do remember seeing some C-Media roadmap a year or two ago that showed some minor feature the 88 had (we're talking "no difference" type feature though, enough to market basically, iirc its that it has the 8ch 24/96 and 2ch 16/48 output vs 8ch 24/96 of the 8787, or something along that line)

Unfortunately C-media appears to have removed all trces of their manuals and support forums from both their English and Chinese site, otherwise I'd direct you to the manuals they had available. When I checked them side-by-side last December, they were identical in features except for the DTS discrepency, like maybe the 8788 was certified and the 8787 was technically-capable-of-but-not-officially-certified. Regardless, you're correct, the differences are minor at best... .

Quote:

Originally Posted by obobskivich /img/forum/go_quote.gif also, if he's liking the Claro Halo, why push the Xonar? both are excellent choices for the op to consider, and the chip used is not found in $200 hp amps, its found in $300-$800 hp amps, these amps also have a much more capable power supply stage than the PC can provide, but its fundamentally the same (this is a positive)

I'm "pushing" the STX because I own and love the card, and since he is a gamer I figure he'd like the additional DS3D GX 2.5 featuer that the Halo doesn't have. Plus, there hasn't been much discussion about the Halo's sound quality (which no doubt is quite good) whereas several people have already praised the STX. And since they're about the same price, it seems more prudent to choose the tested, gamer-oriented card. Either way I'm pretty sure he'd be satisfied in the long run, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by obobskivich /img/forum/go_quote.gif to the OP, the hp amp soundcard is a good route imho, or a USB solution like the 0404, either way its around $150-$200 for that hp wise, you really need to audition some stuff for yourself, in your remaining price range (roughly $300) I see a number of options: Grado SR 325i (or 325is) Sennheiser HD-600 Sennheiser HD-595 Beyerdynamic DT-770 Beyerdynamic DT-880 Denon AH-D2000 AKG K701 AKG K601 Ultrasone HFI-2200 ULE Sony MDR-F1 Sony MDR-SA5000 Audio Technica ATH-A900 Audio Technica ATH-AD1000 (would be a bit of a strech) Audio Technica ATH-W1000 (again a bit of a strech) Kenwood KH-K1000 (also a strech) if you like the DT770's, go with them, don't blindly buy something else if you've already found something you like, this isn't about "being better", its about enjoying the music (or gaming, in your case)

Good advice. In the end, go with what you like or what you feel comfortable with.

 

[patricklang]

I think you should be sure to try these:
Sennheiser HD595 - most aggressive sounding Sennheiser headphone. Slightly warm, brighter treble than the HD580/600/650
AKG k271 - I'd argue they're flatter than the DT770, and maybe a bit better in the treble. I listened to them A-B with the DT770 and bought the k271 instead. The DT770 was boomy when compared to these an less refined in the bass control.

 

[OBCblackhawk]

Well I purchased the Xonar STX last night, it was a card I was looking at but I had always heard HT Omega had some of the best sounding cards on the market. But looking at it farther I decided the STX is perfect for my needs and I like the Bur-Brown DAC's. Headphone wise I'm not entirely sure what I want yet, I don't know of any stores around that let you test headphones. Hard enough finding a store that has even a small selection of high end headphones.

 

[iriverdude]

Quote:

@ the person talking about "hd 650's are bad for modern music, I've used the 500 series", you realize theres massive differences between the two? as in, different enclosure geometry, drivers, wiring, acoustic properties, etc (barely could be argued to have a "house sound", and thats a faint arguement at best)

I demoed the SR-80 then I bought the RS-1 blind. I liked the SR-80 "house sound" just wanted more refinement. I would not do the same for HD-650.

I've done that with other speakers, if I liked Kef Q so went for Kef Reference. I bet it carries onto other things ie you buy a BMW 5 series then later get a 7 series.