[liamstrain]

Quote:

You'd have to almost be schizophrenic to have that experience you mentioned above. Audio differences are real and they are consistent among different recordings, components, and yes, various ICs. 

No - not at all. You really need to do some reading. Not only on social psychology, but also on cognitive biases and simple sensory illusions.
 
Also, pay attention to the reports of your fellows - the differences noted from ics are anything but consistent - they are frequently contradictory and muddled. 
 
Show me some objective data to support your assertion, and we'll talk. 
 
 
Quote:

And eagles are eagles whether someone says look at that amazing it looks or not... 

 your trying to make make it complicated. Like I said, it's very simple.

 
 
Except when someone is mistaken, and it was really a hawk but they didn't know better and hoped they would see an eagle that day. These things are really not very simple. The brain isn't. People are not. Sometimes you need an objective measure to double check. It is not insulting the intelligence of the listener - it's recognizing that we are human.

 

[Blue Boat]

Quote:

Simple. Check with an unbiased tool, like an image editing program. Just like you check cables with unbiased measuring tools to see what they really do.

Wonder how the program actually does it. If it really comes up with measurements, how do we make sense of the evidence when all we see are un-parallel lines? 
 
 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

^ I agree that these types of discussions get people heated, and I know that people throw around nonsense on both sides of the argument. Everyone thinks they are a scientist or physicist on headfi which can get annoying also. 
 
I know the attempt is to get people to go back and forth in a mature manner. But, honestly, its been tried and is rarely successful on this subject. Those that notice a clear difference between cables after swapping them back and forth may not be able to provide proof, but they are not loons getting tricked by their brain or influenced by adds. That's condescending and insults intelligent people. Some cables are a rip off and overpriced. There is a lot of nonsense with cable marketing and high end audio in general, but that doesn't make the whole market illegitimate. 
 
The simple fact that there is not going to be an answer which can be backed up by science at this point makes this type of discussion ripe for flame wars. 
 

The part in bold is so wrong and is a major cause of why fights start as it mis-represents what the objectivist side says. Evidence such as the McGurk Effect and the distorted lines picture shows how all of our senses are not as accurate as would wish them to be. Evidence such as the consistent differences between sighted and blind testing show us that other senses and factors affect how we hear sound quality.
 
Being influenced by advertisments does not mean you are unintelligent. Again that mis-represents the objectivist side. We know how advertising works, there have been numerous studies into advertising and cables cannot be exempt from the effects of such as they are a product like many other advertised like many other.
 
Please stop mis-representing the objectivists.
 

 

[Prog Rock Man]

Quote:

Wonder how the program actually does it. If it really comes up with measurements, how do we make sense of the evidence when all we see are un-parallel lines? 
 
 

I checke the lines were straight using a piece of papaer held up to the PCs screen. A simple experiment to confirm what is really the case and an approach that can be used to make sense of evidence.
 
 

 

[Willakan]

I have never actually seen anyone earnestly take up the line of argument that our senses are generally infallible - most at least admit that it is nothing close to being that simple.

 

[liamstrain]

Quote:

I have never actually seen anyone earnestly take up the line of argument that our senses are generally infallible...

Blew my mind a bit. 

 

[ktm]

Gee, i see flat earthers are at it again.
Almost all cables sound different. That doesn't mean expensive cables sound better.
Note: digital is different, keep it short, and all's well.
If it's just my imagination, Still good. I use cables that aren't the ones from Walmart.
They aren't $1k either. I bought them as good deals, and am happy with them.
I have AQ  and Kimber IC's and two kinds of AQ speaker cable. I also have a homebrew
speaker cable set made from 12/4 SJO electrical cable stripped from a computer room(free).
The Kimbers sound better than the cheap stuff, and I prefer the sound over the same cost
AQ's with any gear I've used. Speaker cables- depending what speakers I'm running(yes- I have had up to 7 sets in the house)
different cables seem to work better. That includes the free 12/4 stranded freebie.
I don't need to have a couple of guys in lab coats standing behind a screen to help me.
I have cables, I use them. I even keep a couple of monster IC's just to remind me how worthless they are.
I didn't pay a lot for any of them. I got a bunch on different store closeouts(80% off). Some were used.
Either way I didn't go nuts. My Cardas Senn cable came with a mint set of hd650's and a DIY CHA47 amp
for less than just the headphones new could of been bought for. I prefer the Cardas to stock.
The Grado extension is better than a radio shack extension with my sr-100's.
Once again, knock yourselves out. There will never be a meeting of the minds over this.
I have even seen people trying to tell me how tube amps couldn't possibly sound good.
Sorry, the Audio Research amp for my speakers is pretty hard to beat, and I've had some decent
SS amps here. I kept one  that performs very well as a back up, and break it out when I really want
big wattage instead of 50 WPC tubes.
I'd never pay $1k for cables, but I'd be selective for what I do use. Don't you all have something better to do than
beat this dead horse?
 
 

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

Gee, i see flat earthers are at it again.
Almost all cables sound different. That doesn't mean expensive cables sound better.
Note: digital is different, keep it short, and all's well.
If it's just my imagination, Still good. I use cables that aren't the ones from Walmart.
They aren't $1k either. I bought them as good deals, and am happy with them.
I have AQ  and Kimber IC's and two kinds of AQ speaker cable. I also have a homebrew
speaker cable set made from 12/4 SJO electrical cable stripped from a computer room(free).
The Kimbers sound better than the cheap stuff, and I prefer the sound over the same cost
AQ's with any gear I've used. Speaker cables- depending what speakers I'm running(yes- I have had up to 7 sets in the house)
different cables seem to work better. That includes the free 12/4 stranded freebie.
I don't need to have a couple of guys in lab coats standing behind a screen to help me.
I have cables, I use them. I even keep a couple of monster IC's just to remind me how worthless they are.
I didn't pay a lot for any of them. I got a bunch on different store closeouts(80% off). Some were used.
Either way I didn't go nuts. My Cardas Senn cable came with a mint set of hd650's and a DIY CHA47 amp
for less than just the headphones new could of been bought for. I prefer the Cardas to stock.
The Grado extension is better than a radio shack extension with my sr-100's.
Once again, knock yourselves out. There will never be a meeting of the minds over this.
I have even seen people trying to tell me how tube amps couldn't possibly sound good.
Sorry, the Audio Research amp for my speakers is pretty hard to beat, and I've had some decent
SS amps here. I kept one  that performs very well as a back up, and break it out when I really want
big wattage instead of 50 WPC tubes.
I'd never pay $1k for cables, but I'd be selective for what I do use. Don't you all have something better to do than
beat this dead horse?

 
Cables sound different, but it's pointless if they sound different only to an individual. You can hardly recommend them to others if all their differences are subjective.
 
You might as well say chocolate cake makes music sound better. I bet it does, but it has nothing to do with the cake.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Gee, i see flat earthers are at it again.

 
Get lost.
 
I think we could use a little moderation in here. If certain other parts of HeadFi are to be DBT Free Zones, then Sound Science should be a Religious Fanatics Free Zone.
 
se
 
 

 

[Blue Boat]

Quote:

Gee, i see flat earthers are at it again.
Almost all cables sound different. That doesn't mean expensive cables sound better.
Note: digital is different, keep it short, and all's well.

 
So then would it be possible to gather all the different sound signatures, along w/ the specific steps to make them (solder used, wire used, sheathing used, etc) and tabulate the results? Say, if I want a 10% brighter sound, I'd go for  a __ AWG, __ length, __ material, __ purity, etc ?

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

 
So then would it be possible to gather all the different sound signatures, along w/ the specific steps to make them (solder used, wire used, sheathing used, etc) and tabulate the results? Say, if I want a 10% brighter sound, I'd go for  a __ AWG, __ length, __ material, __ purity, etc ?

Only if the improvements aren't subjective, obviously. That seems to be what he's arguing, which is great but irrelevant to what the objectivists are looking for.

 

[Blue Boat]

Quote:

Only if the improvements aren't subjective, obviously. That seems to be what he's arguing, which is great but irrelevant to what the objectivists are looking for.

 
That's what I'm trying to get at. If the differences are so real from cable to cable, then making such a table would be so easy. 
 
 

 

[robm321]

An RS-1 might really be a K-1000 and my senses might be tricking me to believe otherwise?

I took psych in college, got an A and I still consistently notice the 3 different ICs that i rotate having their own particular sound year after year.

My senses are really working hard to fool me. Im actually proud of them for working so hard and being so consistant. There is nothing sadder than lazy senses that just don't try hard enough to fool a person. I learned in that psych class that the laziness might actually be a sign of depression. I'm so glad I don't have depressed senses

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

An RS-1 might really be a K-1000 and my senses might be tricking me to believe otherwise?
I took psych in college, got an A and I still consistently notice the 3 different ICs that i rotate having their own particular sound year after year.
My senses are really working hard to fool me. Im actually proud of them for working so hard and being so consistant. There is nothing more sad than lazy senses that just don't try hard enough to fool a person. I learned in that psych class that the laziness might actually be a sign of depression. I'm so glad I don't have depressed senses

 
Yes. Not likely, though. You wouldn't be able to function in society if your perceptions were that off. Little tricks of the mind are part of being human though, and to flat out deny them is ridiculous.
 
You're making a serious logical fallacy here. Just because you're familiar with the fact that biases exist does not make you immune to them. My social psychology professor has us sign the backs of our tests because she knows that if she reads the names first, it could affect the way she grades them. No one is immune (I sort of wanted to point out that she may end up recognizing our handwriting, but I didn't. I suppose since it took her half of the semester to memorize names, that's not likely anyway).
 
See, once you've established that one cable sounds better, it's not your senses fooling you anymore. It's your bias towards that cable. You heard it make a difference, now you think it makes a difference. And every time you hear it, because you think it makes a difference, it makes a difference. And that just enforces your belief. That's a hard loop to crack.
 
Attempting to crack jokes in absence of any actual argument really isn't helping your case.

 

[liamstrain]

Head Injury - thank you for answering politely.