New title - Why do you need to try high end cables?
Nov 28, 2011 at 9:28 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 131

Prog Rock Man

Headphoneus Supremus
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What bothers me is this view that you have to try before you can comment.
 
You do not have to try sticking your fingers into a socket to confirm that you will be electricuted or not. There is sufficient evidence out there to show you it is not a good idea to do so and by not doing so you are showing an inability to learn off others and make reasoned decisions without having to necessarily experience them.
 
We know cables sound different to some people with some kit some of the time. So unlike sticking your fingers into a socket there is a chance that you will get benefit from a cable.
 
We know that testing of cables shows that inherantly there is no difference between them.
 
We know that there is no proven link between how a cable is made or what it is made of and sound quality.
 
We know there is no proven link between cable cost and sound quality.
 
We know sound quality is a subjective matter and so has no guarantee that what sounds good to one person will sound good to another.
 
So there is lots to know about cables without ever having tried them.
 
We then have two choices, both of which are open to criticism, but importantly both are reasonable. Buy an expensive cable and hope it works for you, or decide not to buy because you hope it will not work for you.
 
Nov 28, 2011 at 10:56 PM Post #2 of 131
I guess i agree to that.
What kind of bugs me is how it's sometimes presented to people new to the subject.
They are encouraged to buy fancy cables (or not to), but maybe they're not all warned about the controversy about them. We should let them know about it (preferably without pushing them toward one opinion or another) so they can do their own research and decide for themselves whether or not they want fancy cables or not.
 
That's just my two cents.
 
Nov 28, 2011 at 11:26 PM Post #3 of 131
Oh cool, another anti cable manifesto.  We haven't heard this one before, do continue on.
 
Nov 29, 2011 at 2:55 AM Post #5 of 131
Why skirt the psychological issue?
 
It is far more likely that expectation bias explains the perceived difference than there is an undiscovered field of science with cables.
 
If an unknown difference exists, it would show up in unsighted tests.  That has not been the case.
 
Every piece of evidence points to a psychological difference only.
 
Nov 29, 2011 at 8:08 AM Post #6 of 131


Quote:
Oh cool, another anti cable manifesto.  We haven't heard this one before, do continue on.



 
Why would there not be another anti cable manifesto? On the anti-side its the same players singing the same tunes over and over and over. They want a reaction, and they start their own arguments or barge into opposing cable discussions to get it. Its a sport with all of the zealotry inherent to sports fans.
 
Do you think your posts and others like them, do not enable such behavior? 
 
Nov 29, 2011 at 11:05 AM Post #8 of 131


Quote:
I guess i agree to that.
What kind of bugs me is how it's sometimes presented to people new to the subject.
They are encouraged to buy fancy cables (or not to), but maybe they're not all warned about the controversy about them. We should let them know about it (preferably without pushing them toward one opinion or another) so they can do their own research and decide for themselves whether or not they want fancy cables or not.
 
That's just my two cents.



I agree, to be fair both sides of the argument should be presented. Then people can make thier own minds up.


Quote:
Not very compelling posts for pro-cable:
 
#1 (Pithy remark 1)
#2 (Pithy remark 2(1))
#3 "Your FACE is an ad hominem"
 
At least address the OP.



Thankyou Macius.
 
Nov 30, 2011 at 12:12 AM Post #9 of 131
"try it" often involves what I call the naive subjective view - no level matching, no controls, no mention that you will always hear differences when you listen for them
 
the subjective evaluation crew really needs to educate everyone involved to the real perceptual differences that arise from directing focus, our rapid adaptation and learning abilities, and surprisingly poor audio memory
 
these exist in addition to the expectation/unconscious biases that many refuse to believe they could be subject too - essentially claiming they are not human
 
good subjective testing allows for known psychoacoustics and perceptual testing findings - blinding protocol, level matching absolutely required, training desirable, positive and negative controls to turn subjective perceptions into data that can be reasonably considered to reflect "real" differences
 
 
further it is a canard to claim all cables measure alike and have no clearly audible effect - in any equipment whatsoever - there can be audible effects in some situations
 
but for head-fi the most common cables are line level signal cables and headphone replacement cables
 
for short IC details of shielding, signal gnd resistance can make differences in hum, noise rejection - if unlikely to actually change the desired coupled audio signal by significant amounts
 
headphone cabling should have negligible effect from classic RLC properties given the relatively low currents, short cables, and often relatively flat driver impedance vs frequency curves
 
the mechanical constraints of high flex, low weight, mechanical sheath microphonics rubbing on you clothing make me laugh at many replacement cables
 
many are stiff, bulky, heavy, sheathed in techflex mesh - to me all wrong choices - they shouldn't look impressive - they should be as mechanically non-intrusive as possible while wearing the cans
 
Nov 30, 2011 at 3:45 AM Post #10 of 131
Just give up.
People have heard things, due to bias, placebo or whatever. The problem is, first hand experience is incredibly psychologically powerful - if you believe you have seen/heard something, nobody is going to persuade you otherwise. Someone who has had a positive experience with homeopathy via the placebo effect is not going to accept it when they are told that homeopathy does not work - especially when they find all these other people on the internet who were magically cured as well!
 
Ultimately, the compulsion to believe from hearing these differences is so incredibly strong that logic, sanity and common sense will quite happily be cast aside and those who suggest they should play a part in audio scoffed it with a sort of pitying condescension. Thus, reasoning with people who do not start from a position of reason in the basic tenets of their argument is a total waste of time. Where you highlight one redundant argument, you will either be ignored or informed of another, equally broken argument which proves you are silly (probably involving several distortions of the burden of proof and a couple of logical fallacies)
 
I'm sure hi-fi will eventually swing back to sanity, but more due to products like the Beats making it acceptable to spend a lot on audio. If enough people get into Hi-Fi, eventually the "audio is wizardry" people will be outnumbered.
 
 
Nov 30, 2011 at 6:41 AM Post #11 of 131


Quote:
Just give up.
People have heard things, due to bias, placebo or whatever. The problem is, first hand experience is incredibly psychologically powerful - if you believe you have seen/heard something, nobody is going to persuade you otherwise. Someone who has had a positive experience with homeopathy via the placebo effect is not going to accept it when they are told that homeopathy does not work - especially when they find all these other people on the internet who were magically cured as well!
 
Ultimately, the compulsion to believe from hearing these differences is so incredibly strong that logic, sanity and common sense will quite happily be cast aside and those who suggest they should play a part in audio scoffed it with a sort of pitying condescension. Thus, reasoning with people who do not start from a position of reason in the basic tenets of their argument is a total waste of time. Where you highlight one redundant argument, you will either be ignored or informed of another, equally broken argument which proves you are silly (probably involving several distortions of the burden of proof and a couple of logical fallacies)
 
I'm sure hi-fi will eventually swing back to sanity, but more due to products like the Beats making it acceptable to spend a lot on audio. If enough people get into Hi-Fi, eventually the "audio is wizardry" people will be outnumbered.
 


The part I think is wrong I have highlighted. CABLES DO WORK, THEY DO SOUND DIFFERENT, THERE IS A VERY GOOD REASON WHY THEY SOUND DIFFERENT, IT IS NOT WRONG TO SAY CABLES SOUND DIFFERENT. In the same way homeopathy does work, just not for the reasons many homeopathists think it works. In the same way cables work, but not for the reasons cable makers put forward.
 
I have a DIY cable, a cheaper audiophile SHB Synergy2 cable and an expensive Q-Audio cable. Sighted I am sure they sound different. Without even doing a blind test I can make them sound the same by adjusting the volume on my amp. I am looking to do a blind test, but I am worried about the plugs oi the back of my amp coming apart because of constantly plugging in and unplugging cables. However, since all other cable blind tests have the same results and since I can make my cables sound the same with the volume control, I am sure blind test will find no difference.
 
So in the same way homeopathic medicines work because of placebo, cables work for psychological reasons, not electrical ones. That they both work and bring benefits to people is great. Indeed even knowing something is a placebo has been found to have no effect on a medicines effects. So knowing cables have psychological reasons for working is not wrong and should not stop them from working.
 
 
Nov 30, 2011 at 7:18 AM Post #12 of 131
I wish I could attribute a name to this, but the idea is recurrent enough. One destroys worldly possessions and fake worth (money) as a way to mentally detach from everything but real, primal emotional being. Listening to music is one of these things. When you can comfortably toss 5000 dollars into a fire, you are mentally relaxed enough to let the audio penetrate your skull and connect fully with your consciousness.
 
There are rainforests far away that harbor the most beautiful sonic scapes. I could lie in some places I've been (any place outdoors is starting to do it for me) and live without food or water as long as I focused on the sound which is automatically appreciated and eternally fuelling. I'd bet some rich audiophiles would burn everything in order to be placed into such a reality containing sound that no system could reproduce.
 
There is also the idea that these cables can be somewhat of an investment (like an art piece or precious gem). Those who feel and believe in the unexpressed energy of everything, (whether the belief is rooted in real physics at quantum or as-of-yet not understood realms, or more simplistic views) can claim their cables, having only had electrical flow representing high-end audio move through them, have appreciated in value as their energy has been further refined over time. The order of the tracks played through them would count, and everything else. The words spoken within earshot of the cable, it's compass directions and who has look at the light reflecting off of it before...
 
I've a number of 99 cent interconnects in my current system.
 
Nov 30, 2011 at 9:52 AM Post #13 of 131
Yes, I think that the evidence shows us that the psychology of sound is far more important than the kit it self. Buying very expensive amps, CDPs and cables can make you feel good and enjoy your music more. It can also result in disappointment. Believing you have golden ears and can hear things others cannot again increases your wellbeing about your music. That clearly makes your hifi sound better than others. It also explains why others can find immense satisfaction with much cheaper kit and no name cables.
 
The one exception to this are speakers and headphones.  They are worth spending time auditioning and money on as they inherantly make a difference.
 
Nov 30, 2011 at 10:14 AM Post #14 of 131


Quote:
CABLES DO WORK, THEY DO SOUND DIFFERENT, THERE IS A VERY GOOD REASON WHY THEY SOUND DIFFERENT, IT IS NOT WRONG TO SAY CABLES SOUND DIFFERENT. In the same way homeopathy does work, just not for the reasons many homeopathists think it works. In the same way cables work, but not for the reasons cable makers put forward.
 



I think this is misleading though, because the cables had nothing to do with why they sound different (or the homeopathic medicine "working"). People will report the very same "changes" to their sound, if you just tell them you had replaced their cables with all new silver or OCC interconnects (and leave the same ones in place). This is not the cable sounding different. This is the brain screwing with you. So say because your brain screws with you when properly primed, that cables do work - is incredibly dishonest.
 
Better to say, good marketing and packaging make your music sound better. As jaded as it is - it's more true than saying, cables affect the sound.
 
Nov 30, 2011 at 10:47 AM Post #15 of 131
I agree that the good marketing and packaging is important to what makes a cable work. Its looks and reviews and cost also help. However, in the same way you cannot disassociate the placebo effect with the means of administering the placebo (injection is found to be more effective than a pill for example), you cannot disassociate the physical cable from its effect, especially as good presentation with nice sheething and fancy plugs are all part of the effect.
 
I am also not saying that the brain is screwing with you. Placebo is not screwing with your mind. It is well understood and has great advantages, by being able to make people feel better and by being able to find if something inherantly works as it claims it does. In the same way the effect a cable has on the brain is not screwing with you. It is a means of convincing the brain music sounds better and finding out what really makes a difference and what does not.
 

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