[OK-Guy]

I do not consider me to be a fan-boy of anything apart from West Ham... yes I do like my WM-Z and in direct comparison of an ITouch or IPod it absolutely slaughters them in every department.
 
Now my comparison was done physically with three different units in front of me with the owners of the i-devices, all three of us compared the units and all came to the same conclusion and that was that the WM-Z was head and shoulders above any un-amped/dac'ed Apple product.... now obviously there were no charts to help us formulate our view as  we only had fingers & ears to assist us in our findings, no doubt I daresay we could print off a copy of this fabled and try to figure the exact moment to expect roll-off so we know when each device should be at its limitations but hey say the graph doesn't represent what we are hearing, should we equalize the devices so we get a true read out of the said graph?.
 
I still stand behind my continued stance, if you don't own a WM-Z or had real listening time with it, you cannot judge it... I have not looked at any graph & have no intention of doing so, my main aim for my portable needs is to try and get the most enjoyable sound for my travels, be it a Sony, Apple, iBasso or Timbucktoo, branding does not come into my thinking, it's all about what my ears enjoy most.
 
After reading about the graph in this thread and how the person who did the test didn't even listen (or had?) to a WM-Z would make me instantly suspicious of their findings... would hate to think it was a Apple fan-boy who was just out to try and discredit an obviously superior (my ears again) Sony product... surely Apple would never try to con people (coughs 4G).

 

[OK-Guy]

Quote:

 
Positive you mean.

 
I don't consider you to be a positive person, you're too into academia to for me to consider a word like 'positive'.
 
productive was the word I thought about as I may now think about seeing how the 'line-out' would work into a full hi-fi system... I'd call that a productive statement as it was kinda helpful.

 

[Inks]

 
Tell me, how many people here who own the NWZ had listened to it in person before making the purchase?
 
If then, one has got to make a purchase decision based on (1) objective measurement, and (2) subjective opinions, (1) will be a much more reliable and offers a better guide for equipment matching, that is if one first understood what those graphs are telling him.
 
If one likes the sound even if the measurement does not reflect well, then its good anyway because we listen with our ears.
 
PS: It says a lot if anyone feels that the results of these objective measurements are made to bash the NWZ and tries to discredit them for what they are worth.

Finally, someone reasonable and understanding. People are going to say, but I compared them to X DAP and it thrashes it. People have a big expectation bias with Sony, placebo, if those people think their impressions are more of an objective gold standard then perhaps they should be looking to sell their objective non-biased golden ears to companies. 
 
If it were average I will give it the benefit of the doubt, but it's horrible. No there's nothing wrong with Markus' measurements you can't compare them to Sonove's because different methods are used. Markus uses the TF10 as a load because of it's sensitivity to damping, the Z series has some serious damping issues. Here is the Ibasso DX100...dead flat, I don't like the fact that his product is overpriced but at least the quality is there. 
 
Unfortunately Markus' line-out measurements are useless because there is no load. He has used a load for practically every measurement, hope his TF10 didn't get messed up or anything...
 
@Jeremy. This is a measurement of real sound, don't ignore what you don't yet understand. 
 
The best sounding Sony DAP is still the X series, but even that one is hardly noteworthy. 

 

[hyogen]

man.. coloured gets used like a racial slur around here -_- 
 
It would be interesting to see the graphs for the DX100.  I personally love the coloured/equalized sound of Cowon. 
 
EDIT:  just saw that previous poster's graph of the dx100.  I believe iPod 4/5/5.5G is like that as well.  I guess you're paying for colour with a Sony..  and Cowon   Like I said before, I don't think it makes sense to pay that much for a Z, especially when really limited by space.  A lot more of us would be buying the 8GB model if it only had an expansion slot.  It's like how they make their own proprietary memory cards for everrryyyything....except with the Z you can't get any more..  
 
Anyway, I'd actually like using the 4.3" screen of the Z.  Would be great for videos and Netflix.  I'm using my new Vita for that purpose a lot - 5" amoled screen!!  For a comparison on value, I got my Vita for $150 in mint condition with 4gb memory card, game, and a nice case.  I've seen 2 other vitas go for $150/$140 on craigslist--all with accessories.  There are a ton of people trying to get rid of their vitas with accessories/games for $200 without much success.  Since it really doesn't MATTER how the Z does in the long run, while in the case of the Vita there are serious worries of dropped developer support for games and the risk of becoming the next, let's hope it drops in price and perceived value soon  

 

[Aelavin]

Putting aside the question of superiority of one player over another, could someone tell me if there's much defference between first firmwares and the last one on Z-series?
Because not a long time ago I had chance to listen to Z-series in store and on both - MDR-EX700 and XBA-3 - a sound was so flat, without life and shines and I wonder if it's software issue or it's just the player. I suppose firmware was one of the earliest (I've noticed some places where texts were untranstalted). Even my X1050 is far better in this circumstances.
 
Thanks in advance.
 
P.S. If it's not related to software then I'll wait for next X/Z-series, and at the moment I stay with my X-series

 

[lostid]

Quote:

man.. coloured gets used like a racial slur around here -_- 
 
It would be interesting to see the graphs for the DX100.  I personally love the coloured/equalized sound of Cowon. 
 
EDIT:  just saw that previous poster's graph of the dx100.  I believe iPod 4/5/5.5G is like that as well.  I guess you're paying for colour with a Sony..  and Cowon   Like I said before, I don't think it makes sense to pay that much for a Z, especially when really limited by space.  A lot more of us would be buying the 8GB model if it only had an expansion slot.  It's like how they make their own proprietary memory cards for everrryyyything....except with the Z you can't get any more..  
 
Anyway, I'd actually like using the 4.3" screen of the Z.  Would be great for videos and Netflix.  I'm using my new Vita for that purpose a lot - 5" amoled screen!!  For a comparison on value, I got my Vita for $150 in mint condition with 4gb memory card, game, and a nice case.  I've seen 2 other vitas go for $150/$140 on craigslist--all with accessories.  There are a ton of people trying to get rid of their vitas with accessories/games for $200 without much success.  Since it really doesn't MATTER how the Z does in the long run, while in the case of the Vita there are serious worries of dropped developer support for games and the risk of becoming the next, let's hope it drops in price and perceived value soon  

 
Now that explains why I am addicted to the 5G.

 

[uelover]

Quote:

 
I don't consider you to be a positive person, you're too into academia to for me to consider a word like 'positive'.
 
productive was the word I thought about as I may now think about seeing how the 'line-out' would work into a full hi-fi system... I'd call that a productive statement as it was kinda helpful.

 
I won't call that productive. Even the headphone 3.5mm output will work in any other system, hi-fi or pro audio.
 
Anyway, I am merely providing a technical interpretation for JCJiffy. Regardless of the measurements being good or bad, the NWZ line-out would still work in the hi-fi system that you speak of. So, I don't see your point really.
 
Quote:

man.. coloured gets used like a racial slur around here -_- 

 
It is how people choose to react to and accept words which would otherwise contain no other intended meaning. A colored sound is basically something that does not have a linear FR. It is a descriptive statement based on the measurement data, not a personal opinion nor belief.

 

[OK-Guy]

Quote:

The best sounding Sony DAP is still the X series, but even that one is hardly noteworthy. 

 
ever owned either an WM-X or a WM-Z?... out of pure interest like.

 

[hyogen]

man.. coloured gets used like a racial slur around here -_- 

It is how people choose to react to and accept words which would otherwise contain no other intended meaning. A colored sound is basically something that does not have a linear FR. It is a descriptive statement based on the measurement data, not a personal opinion nor belief.

I'm well aware what coloured sound means as most people on this board probably are.. Is this you trying to educate me or be highly defensive.. Because the rest of my post should tell you I understand that ibasso dx100 and ipod5th gens have very flat, uncoloured sound. Just wondering because I'm not in here to bash the overpriced z. It is what it is, and people will hopefully not regret paying a big premium for something that produces colored sound.

 

[WayTooCrazy]

I never thought the "Z" had a flat, boring sound.  I very much like the sound that it produces.  It's "Tube Like" to my ears.  ...and THAT, I enjoy.  I tried a few Home speakers recently... and I found a pair that I like.  They're the Quad 11L2.  Guess what, they have a slightly rolled off top end, thick middle, great detail... and nice detailed bass (Tube like to me).  I could probably use a sub... but not high on my list with how it sounds with all my Jazz music.  I like them, and the finish on them is fantastic... so, I guess I'm a Tube sound head or something.... lol.

 

[Inks]

Quote:

EDIT:  just saw that previous poster's graph of the dx100.  I believe iPod 4/5/5.5G is like that as well.  I guess you're paying for colour with a Sony..  and Cowon   Like I said before, I don't think it makes sense to pay that much for a Z, especially when really limited by space.  A lot more of us would be buying the 8GB model if it only had an expansion slot.  It's like how they make their own proprietary memory cards for everrryyyything....except with the Z you can't get any more..  

You can't compare Sonove's data to Markus' they use different types of loads. Markus' load is more prone to dips and humps.  Thus the Ipods mentioned won't graph as flat, this is how the Ipod Classic 7G graphs, which will be very similar to those models mentioned. 
 
Here is the Cowon J3, which is average, not poor by any means and better than the Sony X. 
 
We already get plenty coloration with the IEMs/Headphones, a slurred response from the source is degrading.  

 

[uelover]

Quote:

Quote:

man.. coloured gets used like a racial slur around here -_- 

Quote:

It is how people choose to react to and accept words which would otherwise contain no other intended meaning. A colored sound is basically something that does not have a linear FR. It is a descriptive statement based on the measurement data, not a personal opinion nor belief.

I'm well aware what coloured sound means as most people on this board probably are.. Is this you trying to educate me or be highly defensive.. Because the rest of my post should tell you I understand that ibasso dx100 and ipod5th gens have very flat, uncoloured sound. Just wondering because I'm not in here to bash the overpriced z. It is what it is, and people will hopefully not regret paying a big premium for something that produces colored sound.

 
Hmm I am not bashing you or anyone.
 
I am just curious as to why you feel that 'coloured gets used like a racial slur around here'. One popular colored source is the hifiman DAP and some people like them a lot. People can remark that they are colored but I don't see that as a negative remark. 
 
A colored source does have its pros and cons and that is the tradeoff one has to take.

 

[Jeremypsp]

Quote:

Finally, someone reasonable and understanding. People are going to say, but I compared them to X DAP and it thrashes it. People have a big expectation bias with Sony, placebo, if those people think their impressions are more of an objective gold standard then perhaps they should be looking to sell their objective non-biased golden ears to companies. 
 
If it were average I will give it the benefit of the doubt, but it's horrible. No there's nothing wrong with Markus' measurements you can't compare them to Sonove's because different methods are used. Markus uses the TF10 as a load because of it's sensitivity to damping, the Z series has some serious damping issues. Here is the Ibasso DX100...dead flat, I don't like the fact that his product is overpriced but at least the quality is there. 
 
Unfortunately Markus' line-out measurements are useless because there is no load. He has used a load for practically every measurement, hope his TF10 didn't get messed up or anything...
 
@Jeremy. This is a measurement of real sound, don't ignore what you don't yet understand. 
 
The best sounding Sony DAP is still the X series, but even that one is hardly noteworthy. 

I never said I ignored the measurements, but it seems that you're really here to bash/discredit the Z series. Not that is anything wrong, but it's not a smart thing to do considering it as an appreciation thread. And it seems that you're highly biased against the Walkman by mentioning how everything else thrashes it. Okay, I get that you don't like it, but wouldn't it be wiser to start up a thread like "Walkmans aren't worth the hype" or something like that? Coming to an appreciation thread that outright bash it isn't very wise to say the least. 

 

[Jeremypsp]

Quote:

You can't compare Sonove's data to Markus' they use different types of loads. Markus' load is more prone to dips and humps.  Thus the Ipods mentioned won't graph as flat, this is how the Ipod Classic 7G graphs, which will be very similar to those models mentioned. 
 
Here is the Cowon J3, which is average, not poor by any means and better than the Sony X. 
 
We already get plenty coloration with the IEMs/Headphones, a slurred response from the source is degrading.  

Okay, we get it, you take frequency charts much more seriously than real listening experience and hate the Walkman. Now, you can go start up your own hate thread and leave the fans here alone. 

 

[WayTooCrazy]

Quote:

Okay, we get it, you take frequency charts much more seriously than real listening experience and hate the Walkman. Now, you can go start up your own hate thread and leave the fans here alone. 

+1