[Naim.F.C]

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So maybe soundstage depth and width depending on the headphone can be considered placebo like cables making a difference? Hahaha!

Definitely not placebo. It's a very real thing. And the impact of overt bass is just as much a prominent aspect of what could help or negate towards it. The more of a space you have filled with a bassy aura, the more of it is redundant for actual detailing, since the space there that would ordinarily surround sonic elements or instruments, is instead engulfed by bass. But this is just one aspect. Like I said earlier, there are non frequency attribute based facets that constitute towards a headphones sound stage, such as the general housing of the cans/cups, driver design, driver angle, fit, sizing, padding, all sorts really.

 

[grokit]

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This will not happen at head-fi, too many people correlate topend presence with big soundstages and darker presentations with smaller soundstages.  I am still deluded that my K701s have a large soundstage, when in fact, and I know, its because of their frequency response.  Has there ever been a dark can with a massive soundstage?

I'd buy that.  This is why when food is too dry, we need some sauce.  In the case of the HD650s, I can't put up with them without sauce...any sauce from a tube does quite nicely to resolve the dryness...which I called grained.  My first rig was my HD650 and a MF Xcan tube hybrid amp, auditioned a solid state amp, loved the tighter bass and higher resolution and brighter balance, but when I took it home, the dryness killed me.
 
The only cure I can think of with dry cans is to pair it with a slower electronics that have a lesser slew rate.  I do think in the HD650s case a few veiled complaints is indeed merely the dryness in the top end, not necesarily needing more treble, just better articulation of the treble in the exact same amplitudes.

 
That's the funniest thing I've read in awhile, thanks 

.  And that is an interesting question indeed.
 
With the HD600 as much as I still like it maybe that dryness is why I don't find it to scale up so well for me.
 
 
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I haven't heard the 007, but I don't know how it can take the throne of the HD800's soundstage. For me, the soundstage on the HD800 is so good it feels like the stage isn't anywhere by your head. It's almost like listening to speakers.

 
Agreed, and since it seems you appreciate soundstage so you owe it to yourself to give the K1000 a listen sometime if you haven't tried them already 

 

[Jojomite]

haha i thought this was a hd700 thread^^ if u like soundstage go get speakers hehe. personally I'm thinking of getting the mini maggie system. extremely impressive for a under 1.5k speakers!

 

[SP Wild]

 
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Good question, I can't think of one off the top of my head. It also depends on what you mean by dark, is the qualifier a recessed midrange, elevated bass or recessed highs?  shelved highs specifically ime.
 
In terms of the design I'm hoping for the angled drivers and the other housing elements which made the HD800 unique to influence the perception of soundstage. If you mean to say that soundstage is wholly determined by tonality, I'd have to partially disagree.  Good centre channeling IME with HD800 second only to K1000 in this and soundstage size...k1000 needs a lot of angling but, which turns it not necessarily bright but definitely lean in the midrange IMHO.  Closing the K1000 angle, restores tonal balance at the expense of center imgage and soundstage shrinks slightly.

 


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I made sure to say "good," better than say the LCD-2, but not massive like the HD800.  With a standard stax amp, my LCD2 R1, IME with true balanced amp and dac was far bigger than O2...center image the O2 was still noticeable ahead.

 


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The SR007 (mk I or II) doesn't have the expansive sound staging of the HD800. Though it is still quite good.  Puny with standard electronics IME...the HD800 and K701 was massive to me with standard electronics, in my case a BCL with Bryston DAC single ended, quite hi-end actually.  Even with the same crappy source, the BCL amped HD800, devastates the STAX amped O2 in expansive soundstaging.
 
In all honesty I loved the tonal balance of the O2s, I heard, and swore to have O2s eventually...fortunately the LCD2 R1s proved so adequite for my requirements that I feel at ease to delay this purchase...but the LCD3s also beckon...the Koss elctrostats seem interesting to me and for 500 bucks, I am damned curios...if only I wasn't broke, bloody Eurozone crisis nearly bankrupted me for cryin out loud!

 
 


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Really?  I'm not sure, maybe it has something to do with it.  But the K701, HD800, and K1000 all have drivers that are a fair distance from the ear and very open air.  I think that has the biggest effect.  LCD2 also is fair distance driver from ear due to thick angled pads, for me they rivalled K701...K701 also is center images not well.  HD800 was same size to me as LCD2 with same electronics albeit, much better center chanelling.
 
How many dark headphones are there period?  Like 3?  I take your word for it...for shame.

 


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This is just my opinion, but the HD650 has a pretty decent soundstage. But like you said, people misinterpret the soundstage size with the frequency response and the sound signature. And I do that sometimes as well. Brighter sounding headphones are usually the ones described as having a more airy, layered and larger soundstage, unlike dark headphones, like the HD650 and the Omega II which are said to have smaller, not as precisely layered soundstage. That's just IMHO.  Agreed, my HD650 with truly balanced elctronics almost rivals the K701 to my ears...this is the scalability of the HD650, soundstage grows with better electronics.

 
 


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I believe one of the reasons darker sounding headphones tend to have smaller soundstages is because with a more prominent emphasis on bass or low frequencies, other details and general space, or airiness can be somewhat clouded. Bass, unlike mids or highs, imo is one area that has a bit more of an enveloping attribute, that tends to merge or overarch other frequencies, with a bit more dominance than emphasis on other frequencies can have. A focus on highs for example, if anything, promotes detailing which in turn can emphasise separation in instruments or sonic elements, and make the appearance of a more airy or wide soundstage, since you can sometimes make out or hear more in the music.  Unless ones HRTF is sensitve to bright phones, like for me with bigger thanaverage pinnae...so big the T1 squished my lobes to the efect of pain with long sessions...and collapse any soundtsage it may have had.
 
Saying that, putting the above notion aside, I do also generally think headphones such as the T1 and HD800 do indeed have wider soundstages than cans like the LCD-2, HD650 etc.  Disagreed then.

 


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So maybe soundstage depth and width depending on the headphone can be considered placebo like cables making a difference? Hahaha!  For many, IMO, yes...for me cables can make a good system even better in soundstage size.

 


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Or is it just difficult to have a warm, bassy sound in a very open headphone? Perhaps this is true, I tend to think so with all the air leakage.

 

 

[Austin Morrow]

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Or is it just difficult to have a warm, bassy sound in a very open headphone? 

I think the HD650 has a good soundstage, then again, if you mean an airy, amazingly separated soundstage with globs of detail, I don't know if you could make a warm, bassy headphone that is airy and separated.

 

[jrkong]

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Or is it just difficult to have a warm, bassy sound in a very open headphone? 

bass generally gets aired out on open headphones, closed headphones provide a more closed off environment where something similar to a reverb effect deepens the impact of the bass (I can't really think of the right words to use to describe it lol).

 

[purrin]

So who here thinks the HD700 will actually be better in any aspect compared to the HD800? In be more specific, I know there's some wishful thinking (me included) that the HD700 will take the "edge" off the HD800 with a small compromise in detail extraction and soundstage (a given from those pictures taken from the Chinese site showing a smaller cup - assuming they are real - which I'm not convinced - because it looks look Star Wars Empire-ish.)

 

[imackler]

I still don't believe the HD800 are real... It's a Star Wars Tie-Fighter pilot's helmet without, well, the rest of the helmet!
 
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So who here thinks the HD700 will actually be better in any aspect compared to the HD800? In be more specific, I know there's some wishful thinking (me included) that the HD700 will take the "edge" off the HD800 with a small compromise in detail extraction and soundstage (a given from those pictures taken from the Chinese site showing a smaller cup - assuming they are real - which I'm not convinced - because it looks look Star Wars Empire-ish.)

 

 

[maverickronin]

Well if your tastes count as something that can be improved upon it could easily be a lot better.

 

[imackler]

This may be a slam...Hmm...still trying to wrap my mind around this one

 
But you're probably right either way!
 
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Well if your tastes count as something that can be improved upon it could easily be a lot better.

 

 

[maverickronin]

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This may be a slam...Hmm...still trying to wrap my mind around this one

 
But you're probably right either way!

Its not really a slam.  I think the HD800 is by far the most technically advanced dynamic driver on the market.  Its just too bright for my tastes.

 

[imackler]

Alas...I can only comment on the looks...some day, maybe, some day.
 
I get excited though when people comment how the HD700 should be a revision of the HD600. I stinking love the HD600.
 
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Its not really a slam.  I think the HD800 is by far the most technically advanced dynamic driver on the market.  Its just too bright for my tastes.

 

 

[Anaxilus]

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So who here thinks the HD700 will actually be better in any aspect compared to the HD800? In be more specific, I know there's some wishful thinking (me included) that the HD700 will take the "edge" off the HD800 with a small compromise in detail extraction and soundstage (a given from those pictures taken from the Chinese site showing a smaller cup - assuming they are real - which I'm not convinced - because it looks look Star Wars Empire-ish.)

Now just imagine, a completely inverse scenario to the one people are hoping for.  What if, hypothetically speaking, they took a HD650 driver and tuned and dolled it up to look and sound like an HD800?  The idea being to give people a cheaper HD800 alternative that also increases their profit margin and targets their competitors T1 directly.  Just imagine how quickly many dreams here would be quashed.  

  Again, this is all hypothetical.  
 

 

[imackler]

I'd actually feel better about a lot of things. Like my HD600
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Now just imagine, a completely inverse scenario to the one people are hoping for.  What if, hypothetically speaking, they took a HD650 driver and tuned and dolled it up to look and sound like an HD800?  The idea being to give people a cheaper HD800 alternative that also increases their profit margin and targets their competitors T1 directly.  Just imagine how quickly many dreams here would be quashed.  

  Again, this is all hypothetical.  
 

 

 

[Zeroblade]

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So who here thinks the HD700 will actually be better in any aspect compared to the HD800? In be more specific, I know there's some wishful thinking (me included) that the HD700 will take the "edge" off the HD800 with a small compromise in detail extraction and soundstage (a given from those pictures taken from the Chinese site showing a smaller cup - assuming they are real - which I'm not convinced - because it looks look Star Wars Empire-ish.)

 
Well, the HD 700 will certainly beat the HD 800s in terms of price
 
But the way it looks alone, it will probably combine the sound of the HD 800 with the expansiveness (rather, lack thereof in comparison to the 800s) of the HD 600/650. I'd rather not talk about the actual sound of either phone too much because I've only really touched on them through headphone meets, and haven't had the cash to get either.