New Schiit! Ragnarok and Yggdrasil
Sep 27, 2014 at 3:09 PM Post #3,031 of 9,484
A while back Jason reiterated they'll be using their own digital filter algorithm and a D/A conversion scheme that's never been seen before.  That is, a D/A stage not commercially available, or ever used in an audio product.
 
Sep 27, 2014 at 3:13 PM Post #3,032 of 9,484
   
... seriously, wouldn't you rather have the discussion go in this direction while we're all waiting on yggy's release vs. hearing the usual about how some balanced type6 litz hp cable, when plugged into rag, reduced the crime rate within a 5 mile area and added 6" to the listener's schlong?] 

Yes!  I'd count informed speculation on DAC design options/choices as on topic so long there is no real Yggy news.  Maybe even if there is real Yggy news.  What's informed speculation is, I know, contested.  I'm still unclear on why this 'closed form' filter is any better than a similarly accurate non-closed form filter.  Count me skeptical...could still be better, but 'closed form' seems like a red herring.  
 
Sep 27, 2014 at 5:22 PM Post #3,033 of 9,484
Fair point that the quoted language was a reference to earlier designs.  I had missed that.  Still FPGA's are digital processors, not dac's.  Based on estreeter's comment above, I dug deeper into xilinx's site, and lo and behold, the documentation confirms that the spartan 6 simply utilizes an embedded dac: http://www.xilinx.com/support/documentation/ip_documentation/xps_deltasigma_dac.pdf

The point here is that all the published verbiage regarding FPGA's as a "dac chip alternative" is pretty misleading.  The dac chip/core is just bundled into the spartan 6.  So really, chord and ps audio should be up front about the fact that they are using a spartan 6 for processing, which contains an integrated xilinx delta sigma dac for conversion.

As to why this is on topic, I find it all very relevant in assessing what yggy is offering (discrete ladder) vs what the "cutting edge" fpga dacs are offering, via an embedded sigma delta.  It also explains why bottlehead's engineers might choose a different fpga approach, where they are selecting a fpga and dac chip rather than a single combined unit.  [I mean, seriously, wouldn't you rather have the discussion go in this direction while we're all waiting on yggy's release vs. hearing the usual about how some balanced type6 litz hp cable, when plugged into rag, reduced the crime rate within a 5 mile area and added 6" to the listener's schlong?] 

That said, I'm no engineer, so if I've got this wrong somehow, I'm happy to be corrected.  


DSP and DAC don't have to be separate. Jason has said Ygg's filtering, a major part of the DAC's "special sauce," will run on a special purpose DSP chip. Somehow I got FPGA out of special purpose DSP chip, sorry.
 
Sep 27, 2014 at 7:38 PM Post #3,034 of 9,484
So here is a synopsis of what is happening with the Yggy product development. I must preface everything I have to say with a few sentences. Some of them are repetitive and stated with no intentions of sounding patronizing. The Yggy is not a scheduled product release. There will be no 2015 Yggy, etc., etc. It is a goal oriented design release. All Schiit products are goal oriented. Because the Yggy is a loftier design goal than, say, a Modi, there are many more variables and substeps involved. There are thousands of parts manufactured by dozens of companies which make up a Yggy. This means we are subject to the time dependencies of dozens of other companies. Since that involves people who are not our employees we are then reduced to soft science at the very best to predict time. Please understand that we do not lay awake at night wondering how to delay our products – we want them done as much as you do. I will not reduce my goal oriented design to a scheduled product release. For emphasis: Designing an audio product (goal oriented) is like scr****g a gorilla. You are not finished until the gorilla is.
 
The Yggy has seven (7!) internal circuit boards. They are all unique to Yggy. They are all on their second revision. They all fit together, are hooked up properly together, and actually fit in the chassis that Jason has so elegantly designed to match the rest of our line. There will be a third revision of 6 of the seven boards to fix things like hole sizes, parts too close together, wrong parts footprints, etc. The hardware is working. To fix the board errors is 30-40 man hours (me). I won't get to that until after RMAF in case anything else raises its head.  Hopefully after the third rev of the boards is done, I'll be finished. Maybe not. Just have to wait and see. The DSP software, which has to reboot every time a sample rate changes, occasionally gets lost. The button display software needs to more checked for bugs (for example, what happens when the unit is turned on when the input button is held down). This is Dave waiting for the gorilla to finish. The parts have not all been checked for lead-time yet, as there is a very remote chance some of them will change. That said, most of them have some quantity in stock somewhere.
 
What are the technical design goals? Preserve all of the original samples of the source data. To oversample, insert time and frequency domain optimized samples between the original preserved samples. Convert the signal back to analog at full bit width with no delta sigma reduced bit width, no added noise to be partially filtered out later, or stupid meaningless bullschiit claimed bit specs (32 bit – yeah, right). Let me finish off with an anecdote referring to aesthetic goals:
 
My wife loves rock and roll, with Supertramps' Crime of the Century album among her favorites, so much so that she wants it played at her funeral. She has no idea of analog, digital, tubes, transistors, bits, bytes, cans, speakers. She has no hardware prerequisites over which to play her music, she only does so for pleasure. She is subconsciously and emotionally attached to her music. When I play her that music through headphones attached straight to a MacMini, she sits, listens, and nods. When I substitute a Beef (Bifrost) and Val2, she dances around. When I remove the Beef and insert the Yggy (don't have a Raggy yet), she cries.
 
Please stay tuned.
 
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Sep 27, 2014 at 9:28 PM Post #3,037 of 9,484
Thanks Baldr, and I think I speak for everyone here when I say that i sincerely hope that your wife's tears are a good thing, right ?  
 
Roll on RMAF - I'll be in Japan per my other thread but it's good to know that Yggy could well see the light of day within 6-8 weeks if you'll work nights and weekends. What were we saying about tears ?  
etysmile.gif

 
Sep 27, 2014 at 9:47 PM Post #3,038 of 9,484
"My wife loves rock and roll, with Supertramps' Crime of the Century album among her favorites, so much so that she wants it played at her funeral. She has no idea of analog, digital, tubes, transistors, bits, bytes, cans, speakers. She has no hardware prerequisites over which to play her music, she only does so for pleasure. She is subconsciously and emotionally attached to her music. When I play her that music through headphones attached straight to a MacMini, she sits, listens, and nods. When I substitute a Beef (Bifrost) and Val2, she dances around. When I remove the Beef and insert the Yggy (don't have a Raggy yet), she cries."
 
Wow. What more need be said? I can so relate...
 
Sep 27, 2014 at 10:01 PM Post #3,039 of 9,484
  So here is a synopsis of what is happening with the Yggy product development. I must preface everything I have to say with a few sentences. Some of them are repetitive and stated with no intentions of sounding patronizing. The Yggy is not a scheduled product release. There will be no 2015 Yggy, etc., etc. It is a goal oriented design release. All Schiit products are goal oriented. Because the Yggy is a loftier design goal than, say, a Modi, there are many more variables and substeps involved. There are thousands of parts manufactured by dozens of companies which make up a Yggy. This means we are subject to the time dependencies of dozens of other companies. Since that involves people who are not our employees we are then reduced to soft science at the very best to predict time. Please understand that we do not lay awake at night wondering how to delay our products – we want them done as much as you do. I will not reduce my goal oriented design to a scheduled product release. For emphasis: Designing an audio product (goal oriented) is like scr****g a gorilla. You are not finished until the gorilla is.
 
The Yggy has seven (7!) internal circuit boards. They are all unique to Yggy. They are all on their second revision. They all fit together, are hooked up properly together, and actually fit in the chassis that Jason has so elegantly designed to match the rest of our line. There will be a third revision of 6 of the seven boards to fix things like hole sizes, parts too close together, wrong parts footprints, etc. The hardware is working. To fix the board errors is 30-40 man hours (me). I won't get to that until after RMAF in case anything else raises its head.  Hopefully after the third rev of the boards is done, I'll be finished. Maybe not. Just have to wait and see. The DSP software, which has to reboot every time a sample rate changes, occasionally gets lost. The button display software needs to more checked for bugs (for example, what happens when the unit is turned on when the input button is held down). This is Dave waiting for the gorilla to finish. The parts have not all been checked for lead-time yet, as there is a very remote chance some of them will change. That said, most of them have some quantity in stock somewhere.
 
What are the technical design goals? Preserve all of the original samples of the source data. To oversample, insert time and frequency domain optimized samples between the original preserved samples. Convert the signal back to analog at full bit width with no delta sigma reduced bit width, no added noise to be partially filtered out later, or stupid meaningless bullschiit claimed bit specs (32 bit – yeah, right). Let me finish off with an anecdote referring to aesthetic goals:
 
My wife loves rock and roll, with Supertramps' Crime of the Century album among her favorites, so much so that she wants it played at her funeral. She has no idea of analog, digital, tubes, transistors, bits, bytes, cans, speakers. She has no hardware prerequisites over which to play her music, she only does so for pleasure. She is subconsciously and emotionally attached to her music. When I play her that music through headphones attached straight to a MacMini, she sits, listens, and nods. When I substitute a Beef (Bifrost) and Val2, she dances around. When I remove the Beef and insert the Yggy (don't have a Raggy yet), she cries.
 
Please stay tuned.

 
Thank you. These are exciting times to wait and so I will!
 
Sep 28, 2014 at 5:48 PM Post #3,041 of 9,484
[/quote]
When I remove the Beef and insert the Yggy (don't have a Raggy yet), she cries.


[/quote]


You gotta get your wife a Raggy, after all you help design it! Awesome work Mr. Moffat, I can't wait to test out this piece of machinery, I'm sure it's gonna be something to behold.

Btw, you guys weren't kidding when you said you don't take yourself too seriously when you could've put one of your Schiit toys as an avatar, you chose to put up a pic of a Grado headphone. :wink:


.
 
Sep 28, 2014 at 10:57 PM Post #3,043 of 9,484
I've been ruminating over the nicknames for these 2 new Schiit statements and I just can't call the Ragnarok the Rag.  
Instead I want to call it the Rok (as in, as steady as a…)
 
Like the Mjolnir, which I refer to as the Mojo amp, (because it has plenty of…).
 
And Yggy just doesn't work for me either…
But Jggy has a nice ring to it.
 
So this means I'll be gett'n Jggy wid da Rok!
 
Like I like! :thumb
 
 
JJ 
atsmile.gif

 

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