[bmichels]

  Maybe this is the best thread to be discussing these DAC's ?

 
yes, you are right 

 
Here is a new review about the HD DAC.  I wish I can speak German  

   (can someone tell me what is written ?  good or not good ?)
 
So:  HD DAC ? Berkley ? Lampizator Big7 ? Total DAC Dual D-1 ?  or...I kept my HUGO  
 
Plus, I need to make sure that the DAC will offer the right synergy with my Headphone TUBE Amp Eddie Current 4-45 !! 
 
life is difficult !

 

[arnaud]

Or the schiit iggy to have plenty of leftover money to travel, go to concerts, buy music ... .

 

[isquirrel]

I can help possibly with my findings re the Hugo.
 
I thoroughly enjoyed the Hugo however after time I found that I was missing some aspects of my desired sonic envelope. so I chased extra performance out of it by adding the Audiophilleo AP1 SE & PP and ran a 1.5 meter BNC coax. (Nordost) this added some extra magic and tonality. I added the ALO Studio Six and played around with valves ad infinitum to change the tonal balance to my liking. Richer with more harmonic richness. I do not like anything remotely bright. 
 
I then added a QBD76 HDSD as I though it would be interesting to compare the 2 Chord products. Now I knew that the QBD 76 was not as technically current as the Hugo but nonetheless it was interesting to hear the differences, the QBD76 presented a sound that was fuller, better bass overall it sounded richer, there were things that it did not do as well as Hugo and that was in the upper mids which did have the Hugo's natural tone and ease. From that I could build a picture of where the next iteration of the QBD was going to go. 
 
The Gryphon Kalliope sounded very different to both, everything sounded slower, with the Chord products I was in the music with the Kalliope I was viewing the performance from several roes back. The soundstage was larger and using the USB input, (the Kalliope has a high end USB implementation with its own amplifier module) it had a tremendous sense of ease. The edges were smoothed out of the sound. The sound signature was instantly recognisable as Gryphon. Refined and smooth, on two of my test tracks the Kalliope sounded beautiful (Yo-Yo Ma playing Gabriel's Oboe and Les Mis - I dreamed a dream) easily besting the QBD76.
 
However the Kalliope did not really stir the emotions.
 
I was then spent a day with he DaVinci and from the 1st track I knew I was in the presence of a great DAC, I got goosebumps, I have not had that experience before from digital only the finest analog systems have done that. The soundstage was huge and resolving without being edgy. I was drawn into the performance completely, I noticed that I was immediately able to follow with no effort every word of the story of an operatic piece. The noise floor was non existent. However now there was light around the notes. I felt lifted up by the performance.
 
Onto the Nagra HD. Every Nagra product I have heard has a similar house sound. Andreas Koch designed the FPGA DAC stage so that bodes well for another goosebumps performance. My concerns are the same as yours. Will it perform equal well on redbook/ higher res PCM as well as DSD.
 
The DaVinci designers have gone to the extreme route of putting 2 completely separate DAC's into two separate enclosures only sharing the common USB input. One for PCM and one for DSD. This appeals to me, as does their bit perfect approach, they do not use any up-sampling or interpolation. My experience with up-sampling via the dCS stack and the Kalliope is that it does not do the music any favours. In my opinion. I won't get into it here.
 
Interested to hear your feedback on the Nagra HD. I also fell in love with the Woo's... 
 

 

 

 

 

[TheAttorney]

Hi isquirrel
 
Sounds like you very much liked the DaVinci.
 
Was that via PCM or DSD?

 

[icebear]

   
yes, you are right 

 
Here is a new review about the HD DAC.  I wish I can speak German  

   (can someone tell me what is written ?  good or not good ?)
...

They were completely enthusiastic about it but I couldn't see any description of the sound (other than general stuff like "relaxed, detailed, charming").
There are NO examples of music they listend to

.
All it was - raving about the technical aspects. Their summary: Best DAC money can buy at the moment.

 

[TheAttorney]

Yes, a conclusion that is worthless without naming the DAC they had previously considered the best that money can buy.

 

[isquirrel]

  Hi isquirrel
 
Sounds like you very much liked the DaVinci.
 
Was that via PCM or DSD?

Both formats, was the only DAC so far that sounded equally good with both formats. My benchmark is that a DAC can do redbook 16/44 well, if it can't well its not very useful.
 
I really don't care who winds the high res format war, we are all winners as both are taking sonic performance to a higher level. Just wish Apple would get on with it.

 

[isquirrel]

  Yes, a conclusion that is worthless without naming the DAC they had previously considered the best that money can buy.

Yep, I called the Nagra distributor (who's phone line had been disconnected!) I finally tracked him down over 3 weeks and frankly that was a waste of time. He told me it was the 'best' DAC I could buy and as such there was no point in listening to it. I enquired if he had a demo unit coming - ever and the response was no need Nagra customers will buy it anyway. 
 
At this price level I expect more support for a product than that. To be honest after the experience it put me off, because there's no local support for the product.

 

[arnaud]

Not to diss on nagra, I am pretty sure it must sound fantastic, but the distributor may not be far from telling the truth... This gear has really amazing finish and looks quite special, I can imagine fans of the brand being loyal and buying in good faith.
Also probably not the kind of market share where customers have financial restrictions or be looking for the best deal in town.
I'd love to hear one (all we get is static displays once a year at audio shows here it seems), much appreciate reviews / impressions being posted, but the price puts me in the spectator side hence my initial comment about seeking bit more affordable r2r solutions .

 

[icebear]

  Yes, a conclusion that is worthless without naming the DAC they had previously considered the best that money can buy.

... and quite a lot of money :
If I'm not mistaken it's 18,000 Eur for the DAC plus either 2x compact switching PSU's for 950 Eur each or a multi MPS PSU for 4,500 Eur plus 2 isolation bases for 1,500 Eur each.
Whoever can afford it and doesn't want to listen to it first, jump right in

.

 

[isquirrel]

 
... and quite a lot of money :
If I'm not mistaken it's 18,000 Eur for the DAC plus either 2x compact switching PSU's for 950 Eur each or a multi MPS PSU for 4,500 Eur plus 2 isolation bases for 1,500 Eur each.
Whoever can afford it and doesn't want to listen to it first, jump right in

.

Yep I have made that mistake before and it hurts. I will not buy a piece of equipment without listening to it first. The more I think about the Nagra the more I think about whether the on board headphone amp would truly be capable of driving decent headphones properly. The attraction for me is the all in one solution.
 
I was so impressed by the Woo 234's and their sonic abilities over and above the Studio Six that it hammered home the point that a really great amp is needed to get the best performance.

 

[bmichels]

 
...I was then spent a day with he DaVinci and from the 1st track I knew I was in the presence of a great DAC, I got goosebumps, I have not had that experience before from digital only the finest analog systems have done that. The soundstage was huge and resolving without being edgy. I was drawn into the performance completely, I noticed that I was immediately able to follow with no effort every word of the story of an operatic piece. The noise floor was non existent. However now there was light around the notes. I felt lifted up by the performance.

 
So..did you buy the DaVinci ? 
 
I was under the impression that 2 months ago you ordered both the DAC and the CAT Transport/streamer !  have you been disapointed by the CAD solution ? 

 

[isquirrel]

Yes I have bought the DaVinci, it arrives this week. I also went with the dual USB Light Harmonic cables.
 
I was very keen on the CAD DAD and Transport however they do not do native DSD and do not have Australian CE approval which was the final stumbling block. I spoke with some dealer friends who all advised against me investing money into a DAC that did not support native DSD.

 

[bmichels]

just one question: is the NAGRA a R2R DAC ?
 
Indeed, for some (obscure reasons, the R2R DACs are supposed to be the DACs offering the best synergy with my Eddie Current 445 tube amp.

 

[TheAttorney]

I first brought up the DaVinci in this thread as a suitable price rival to the Nagra. But now I look at it more closely, it's not stacking up so well:
 
Based on the Euro prices, the Nagra HD DAC should be roughly £18k in the UK including the basic power supplies. On the evidence so far, there is no compelling reason to go for the enhanced supply or isolation platform from a purely SQ point of view. Although some may find the 4-way power supply more convenient, and the isolation platform certainly "bigs up" the very petite Nagra look. Incidentally, the HD DAC is deeper than the other Nagra components, so it would go at the bottom of a stack. 
 
It's hard to find a UK price for the DaVinci. Two years ago the PCM-only version cost £18k, i.e. it follows the depressing typical high end trend of US components costing almost the same in £ in the UK as they do in $ in the US, despite the 1.6 currency exchange ratio. Even if there's been no price rise in the last two years, that still makes the PCM+DSD version around £28k. Sorry, that's out of my price range even if it turns out to be way better than the Nagra.
 
If buying in the US, the price difference would probably narrow considerably; And if buying outside of Europe or US, it would be somewhere in between.
 
Other factors in the comparison:
 
The DaVinci is MUCH bigger and, with it's rotating top, it more or less demands to be placed on the top shelf. But at least you don't have to find further space for any external power supplies.
Also, as far as I can tell, the DaVinci doesn't have a pre-amp or headphone section.
So really, these two haven't ended up as close competitors as I had originally thought.
 
I'd class the DaVinci as a no holes barred pure DAC, whereas the Nagra is a lower cost all rounder, which possibly won't have the same level of SQ - would still be fascinating to compare the two though )