[bongieto]

  I did some exhaustive reading on these forums for the past 4-5 days on DACs and wanted some recommendations. (I might start thread too lol). 
I decided to post here as I saw this thread has been quite active and also the fact that the M8 is an option I am considering. 
Please pardon me if this feels like a repeat from the new thread I am about to post
 
I'm looking for my first DAC and was wondering what would be your suggestions.
I used to have the Harman Kardon HK3990 (the stereo 120Watt amp) + Polk Monitor 70s ( had to sell them because I moved and they were to big to fit my car).
My current setup: Windows Desktop with onborad realtek audio (which sucks) + JBL LSR305 + M50x Headphones.
 
I recently auditioned the Steinberg UR22II with the CS4270 DAC and was somewhat impressed, but unfortunately I had to return it as it was a defective unit. 
So, as for what I'm looking for: 
Budget: 150-250$ may stretch to 300$ if its a real bargain
Use: Music listening and PC Gaming (surround not a requirement) 
Connectivity: USB input, RCA out (Balanced out is even better), Optional: optical in/out
Optional: Headphone amp not a requirement but wouldnt mind if its AIO
 
I read that the ES9018 is a good chip but the M8 uses the ES9018K2M which I've read mixed reviews about. 
The current options I'm considering:
Schiit Modi 2
Aune X1S
SMSL M8
Cambridge DacMagic 100
Peachtree Dacit X
MF- V90 DAC
Fostex HP-A3
(Not considering the Audio-gd products as I'm not too sure about the whole shipping from china and waiting for a month to arrive. Plus their cheapest DAC is 350$ something)
 
My questions: 
What might be the major differences that I could actually hear between all of these? 
Will DSD support be of any benefit? (is there enough source music available to take advantage of it?)
Any thoughts on audio latency issues with any of them, in case I use them for gaming?
Any other suggestions apart from the ones I listed ? (Especially ones with some exotic DAC like Sabre 9018 or some Wolfsons?)

If you are considering SMSL M8, which a very good DAC for its price, I have my whole SMSL stack posted in the classifieds. Its all basically new. 

 

[DjBobby]

  I did some exhaustive reading on these forums for the past 4-5 days on DACs and wanted some recommendations. (I might start thread too lol). 
I decided to post here as I saw this thread has been quite active and also the fact that the M8 is an option I am considering. 
Please pardon me if this feels like a repeat from the new thread I am about to post
 
I'm looking for my first DAC and was wondering what would be your suggestions.
I used to have the Harman Kardon HK3990 (the stereo 120Watt amp) + Polk Monitor 70s ( had to sell them because I moved and they were to big to fit my car).
My current setup: Windows Desktop with onborad realtek audio (which sucks) + JBL LSR305 + M50x Headphones.
 
I recently auditioned the Steinberg UR22II with the CS4270 DAC and was somewhat impressed, but unfortunately I had to return it as it was a defective unit. 
So, as for what I'm looking for: 
Budget: 150-250$ may stretch to 300$ if its a real bargain
Use: Music listening and PC Gaming (surround not a requirement) 
Connectivity: USB input, RCA out (Balanced out is even better), Optional: optical in/out
Optional: Headphone amp not a requirement but wouldnt mind if its AIO
 
I read that the ES9018 is a good chip but the M8 uses the ES9018K2M which I've read mixed reviews about. 
The current options I'm considering:
Schiit Modi 2
Aune X1S
SMSL M8
Cambridge DacMagic 100
Peachtree Dacit X
MF- V90 DAC
Fostex HP-A3
(Not considering the Audio-gd products as I'm not too sure about the whole shipping from china and waiting for a month to arrive. Plus their cheapest DAC is 350$ something)
 
My questions: 
What might be the major differences that I could actually hear between all of these? 
Will DSD support be of any benefit? (is there enough source music available to take advantage of it?)
Any thoughts on audio latency issues with any of them, in case I use them for gaming?
Any other suggestions apart from the ones I listed ? (Especially ones with some exotic DAC like Sabre 9018 or some Wolfsons?)

DSD support will be of benefit only if you have, or plan to purchase some DSD files. Otherwise no use for it.
Second thought is a sound preference, which is matter of taste. M8 sounds detailed and crisp, forward and engaging, but to some ears could sound a little bit aggressive and dry. It's for sure better than Modi2U. I left Modi2U for SMSL Sanskrit 6th (Wolfson8740) which was a big step up, sounding warmer and more analogue.
Bought also M8 which I am still testing. M8 is technically better than both and has more shine to the sound, but still it depends on the music. Old 70's rock is much better sounding on Sanskrit, and faster pace music sounds better on M8. In one of my previous posts I've compared Sanskrit 6th to Mercedes, and M8 to BMW.
Modi is under the level of this two. I was auditioning previously DacMagic 100 but it sounded too polite, not so exciting to my ears. I hope this helps a bit.

 

[sr2002]

Thanks for the reply. But i read in a lot of posts that the M8 requires the linear P1 power supply in order perform at its full potential. The P1 supply currently costs 110$ extra, which makes this combo pretty expensive. Is there a way around this ? How much of a difference does it make with the stock power supply versus the P1 ? 
Any thoughts on the quality of something like the Audio Engine D1 or how it might compare to this? Since currently the M8 is on sale for 190$ on Amazon and the AudioEngine is 170$ I think which is in the same ball park. Given the 180$ price tag, will the M8 (without the P1 power supply) sound better or more refined than the competition in that price bracket? 
 
Any comments on the long term reliability of this unit? Heard some people mentioning customer support and warranty being non existent. Will it be a safer choice to buy a mainstream brand like Schiit or AudioEngine or Aune?

 

[bongieto]

  Thanks for the reply. But i read in a lot of posts that the M8 requires the linear P1 power supply in order perform at its full potential. The P1 supply currently costs 110$ extra, which makes this combo pretty expensive. Is there a way around this ? How much of a difference does it make with the stock power supply versus the P1 ? 
Any thoughts on the quality of something like the Audio Engine D1 or how it might compare to this? Since currently the M8 is on sale for 190$ on Amazon and the AudioEngine is 170$ I think which is in the same ball park. Given the 180$ price tag, will the M8 (without the P1 power supply) sound better or more refined than the competition in that price bracket? 
 
Any comments on the long term reliability of this unit? Heard some people mentioning customer support and warranty being non existent. Will it be a safer choice to buy a mainstream brand like Schiit or AudioEngine or Aune?

I am selling my SMSL stack for $350. It Includes M8, P1 and VA2. The price also includes Paypal fees and shipping. Its basically 2 months old. I cannot speak for the other DACs you mentioned but M8 paired with P1 creates a very detailed and smooth music reproduction. Available reviews can attest to the quality of M8. 

 

[sr2002]

Thanks for the offer bongieto, but I am actually considering to buy a new unit and have decided upon other options. 
 
Since I am new member, I am not allowed  to start a new thread in this section, so I have created a new one: 
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/802593/dac-recommendations-returning-audio-enthusiast-audio-gd-vs-other-offerings
 
Please take a moment to pitch in your advice, I would really appreciate it. 

 

[rootscript]

  Thanks for the reply. But i read in a lot of posts that the M8 requires the linear P1 power supply in order perform at its full potential. The P1 supply currently costs 110$ extra, which makes this combo pretty expensive. Is there a way around this ? How much of a difference does it make with the stock power supply versus the P1 ? 
Any thoughts on the quality of something like the Audio Engine D1 or how it might compare to this? Since currently the M8 is on sale for 190$ on Amazon and the AudioEngine is 170$ I think which is in the same ball park. Given the 180$ price tag, will the M8 (without the P1 power supply) sound better or more refined than the competition in that price bracket? 
 
Any comments on the long term reliability of this unit? Heard some people mentioning customer support and warranty being non existent. Will it be a safer choice to buy a mainstream brand like Schiit or AudioEngine or Aune?

I bought my M8 via MassDrop, so any warranty issues are directly with them.
The M8 replaced an Audio Engine D1 (which was OK) but it was USB powered & no way as clear as the M8.
 
In terns of component quality (I have 2 AudioEngine products) and will never buy again, they use cheap unknown capacitors - HOWEVER they are OK/smooth for entry level & look good (if that matters to you).
 
The stock M8 with supplied powered supply is better IMO than the D1, and I would think that it would be better with the P1 power supply IF your USB source isn't 'clean' from noise/interference.
You could also improve the whole setup with a slight upgrade in USB cable or optical etc..., something like WireWorld ultravoilet 7, but these tweaks will ONLY be of benefit if your whole system is capable enough to 'allow' the tweaks to be heard (is there a weak link in your system?).
 
At this price point I believe that the M8 is great, you can look at other Sabre 9018 DACs; and the implementation & other components will make a difference even when looking at DACs that all use Sabre 9018 chips.
If you want something a lot better than the SMSL M8, you will need to spend considerably more.  I would advise you to buy the M8 (you will be happy for a year or so), and spend the extra money elsewhere in your system (what ever is the weakest link, speaker cables, clean power, better amp etc...)
 
I plan to upgrade to the SMSL P1 power supply, but I am more than happy with it as is (for the foreseeable future)
If I had loads of money to spend & wanted to upgrade from the M8, I would choose something like the M2Tech Young DSD.
 
Also, I was reading one of your other posts about DACs & volume control etc... To get the most out of your equipment, run your player software at 100%, DAC volume at 100% (or better to buy one without a volume), and use your amp as the master volume.

 

[Triplefun]

The ES9018 chip and ES8018K2M like DSD files. You can use Foobar to upsample media on the fly to DSD128. Also the P1 is not really noticeable unless you have a bad local power supply or a high quality back end system to show the differences. See http://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/info/hi-res-guide/s-m-s-l-m8-reach-up-to-32-bit-384177528.
 
We chose to conduct our plays with the help of the optional linear power S.M.S.L P1. The return, to us, seemed no more airy with this than with the original power supplied by the M8.
 
In essence, this addition proved to be nothing exceptional; the M8 works perfectly in its basic configuration. But, since we did have the P1 power available for testing, it seemed stupid not to use it! The set has a very nice look to it, overall, even if it is on the costly side. But then, at Qobuz, we are always well predisposed to enjoy traditional, linear power supplies!
 
I have the Gustard X20u on my main system and am waiting for the SMSL M8 to arrive for my office system. The SMSL M8 will replace my Schiit Loki. I don't think you will notice much difference with the system you have in buying DACs more expensive than the M8. Your main issue will be the volume control. I suggest you get the M8 and use the money you save to get a good headphone amp with volume control and line out to your active speakers. Then look at buying replacement speakers and amp. Then cables. And finally, upgrade the DAC. And, don't forget the music.

 

[sr2002]

  I bought my M8 via MassDrop, so any warranty issues are directly with them.
The M8 replaced an Audio Engine D1 (which was OK) but it was USB powered & no way as clear as the M8.
 
In terns of component quality (I have 2 AudioEngine products) and will never buy again, they use cheap unknown capacitors - HOWEVER they are OK/smooth for entry level & look good (if that matters to you).
 
The stock M8 with supplied powered supply is better IMO than the D1, and I would think that it would be better with the P1 power supply IF your USB source isn't 'clean' from noise/interference.
You could also improve the whole setup with a slight upgrade in USB cable or optical etc..., something like WireWorld ultravoilet 7, but these tweaks will ONLY be of benefit if your whole system is capable enough to 'allow' the tweaks to be heard (is there a weak link in your system?).
 
At this price point I believe that the M8 is great, you can look at other Sabre 9018 DACs; and the implementation & other components will make a difference even when looking at DACs that all use Sabre 9018 chips.
If you want something a lot better than the SMSL M8, you will need to spend considerably more.  I would advise you to buy the M8 (you will be happy for a year or so), and spend the extra money elsewhere in your system (what ever is the weakest link, speaker cables, clean power, better amp etc...)
 
I plan to upgrade to the SMSL P1 power supply, but I am more than happy with it as is (for the foreseeable future)
If I had loads of money to spend & wanted to upgrade from the M8, I would choose something like the M2Tech Young DSD.
 
Also, I was reading one of your other posts about DACs & volume control etc... To get the most out of your equipment, run your player software at 100%, DAC volume at 100% (or better to buy one without a volume), and use your amp as the master volume.

Hey thanks so much for the detailed reply. The M8 does seem like a very hard to let go deal and I am still considering it. But looking at the Gustard X12 and the NFB-1DAC, I'm having second thoughts. I want to get something that I will enjoy for a long time rather than upgrade. So if I buy a DAC, I would like it to be close to end game and do justice to Speakers/Amps that I will buy in the future. And since, I currently have the luxury of stretching my budget to 500$, I'm trying to see whats the best I can get at that price point.  
However, I am also looking at other Saber 9018K2M offerings from Hifimediy, which seem more portable and have a headphone amp built in. 
What are your thoughts on the X12 ? Do you have any other suggestions as far as the ES9018 implementation based DACs (not the ES9018k2m). 
 
 
@Triplefun I replied to you on my thread please refer to it thanks ... ( I keep getting flagged for quoting you because of the external links lol) 

 

[sr2002]

 
The ES9018 chip and ES8018K2M like DSD files. You can use Foobar to upsample media on the fly to DSD128. Also the P1 is not really noticeable unless you have a bad local power supply or a high quality back end system to show the differences. See .
 
We chose to conduct our plays with the help of the optional linear power S.M.S.L P1. The return, to us, seemed no more airy with this than with the original power supplied by the M8.
 
In essence, this addition proved to be nothing exceptional; the M8 works perfectly in its basic configuration. But, since we did have the P1 power available for testing, it seemed stupid not to use it! The set has a very nice look to it, overall, even if it is on the costly side. But then, at Qobuz, we are always well predisposed to enjoy traditional, linear power supplies!
 
I have the Gustard X20u on my main system and am waiting for the SMSL M8 to arrive for my office system. The SMSL M8 will replace my Schiit Loki. I don't think you will notice much difference with the system you have in buying DACs more expensive than the M8. Your main issue will be the volume control. I suggest you get the M8 and use the money you save to get a good headphone amp with volume control and line out to your active speakers. Then look at buying replacement speakers and amp. Then cables. And finally, upgrade the DAC. And, don't forget the music.

Hey Triplefun, I replied to you in my thread in the help section. Please refer to it thanks : ) 

 

[rootscript]

  Hey thanks so much for the detailed reply. The M8 does seem like a very hard to let go deal and I am still considering it. But looking at the Gustard X12 and the NFB-1DAC, I'm having second thoughts. I want to get something that I will enjoy for a long time rather than upgrade. So if I buy a DAC, I would like it to be close to end game and do justice to Speakers/Amps that I will buy in the future. And since, I currently have the luxury of stretching my budget to 500$, I'm trying to see whats the best I can get at that price point.  
However, I am also looking at other Saber 9018K2M offerings from Hifimediy, which seem more portable and have a headphone amp built in. 
What are your thoughts on the X12 ? Do you have any other suggestions as far as the ES9018 implementation based DACs (not the ES9018k2m). 
 

I understand exactly what you are saying about buying the best that you can at the time.  In my case I was originally looking 'wanting' to spend 1000s on a DAC; I took a chance on the M8 & I'm happy that I had the left over extra money to spend on other items (USB cables, AC Regenerator power supply, Nordost speaker cables etc...) - Sometime you just find a product that is really all you need in terms of quality & that allows you to spend on other areas, you have to look at the whole picture. If you had an M8 in your system, you could definitely look else where in your system for weak links.
 
All the connectors, speaker cables, USB cables, interconnects are important & you can spend just as much money on cables as you do on components.

 
Big black box on the floor is an AG500 AC regenerator (good clean stable AC power), the white box is a REL T-Zero subwoofer.
The REL is AMAZING and made one of the biggest improvements to my system.

 
Here is one setup I experimented with below, software player 100 volume, DAC 100%, tube amp 100%, & Schiit Vali 2 preamp as a master volume control.

 
We all want 'the final system', but the truth is we all will probably keep upgrading/tweaking our systems forever - i think that most of us will probably agree with that 

 
 
In the end, what I am saying is the SMSL gets you 90% of the way there to a good DAC, you could spend $350 more and get 95% to a great DAC, but you could spend that 'extra' $350 on a Schiit Vali 2 pre-amp, a Wyrd decrapifier, and some ok speaker cable (Van Damme 6mm Hifi Speaker Cable is the best entry level bang for buck), you know exactly what I mean.

 

[Triplefun]

@sr2002
 
I would look at upgrading your headphone first so you can then start to appreciate the value a DAC can bring to your music. Massdrop are currently advertising the Gustard H10 for $290 which will provide you with both a volume control and a superior class A headphone amp (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-h10). Get your phones sorted first, then look at the speakers.

 

[sr2002]

@Triplefun 
 
Thanks, I was looking at that gustard Amp. But I am not sure I'm much of a headphone guy, I prefer speakers in general. But then again, I have not experience high quality headphones through a good amp either so I cant say I wont like it lol . 
 
The reason I am looking for a DAC is that my onboard soundcard is Realtek garbage which has quite a lot of interference. It gives out an audible loud buzz when my video card is triggered and when its fans start. And I need to address that situation immediately lol. So I was looking at a sound card, but thought I instead of spending 150-200$ on a sound blaster or an internal sound card I'd rather spend a couple of hundred more and a state of the art DAC than serve as sound card and a stand alone processor for future upgrades. (And also the balanced outs)
 
Is there any advantage to buy from Massdrop? Do they offer better support for exchange of returns? 
Is there a way to track massdrop for if they will have the X12 on sale? or something similar to that?
 
Also, what happened to the Emotiva DC 1 DAC, its listed on the website but can't find it on sale anywhere! It also seems to have everything I want. 

 

[sr2002]

@rootscript 
 
That is a really awesome looking setup you got there! You seem very thorough with the whole AC conditioning unit and all. I can only dream of such a setup for now haha. But i guess I have to start somewhere ... And I'm glad to hear that the M8 is giving you enough performance to appreciate such a high end setup. That does speak good things about the M8's capabilities!

 

[rootscript]

 
The reason I am looking for a DAC is that my onboard soundcard is Realtek garbage which has quite a lot of interference. It gives out an audible loud buzz when my video card is triggered and when its fans start. And I need to address that situation immediately lol. So I was looking at a sound card, but thought I instead of spending 150-200$ on a sound blaster or an internal sound card I'd rather spend a couple of hundred more and a state of the art DAC than serve as sound card and a stand alone processor for future upgrades. (And also the balanced outs)
 
Is there any advantage to buy from Massdrop? Do they offer better support for exchange of returns? 
Is there a way to track massdrop for if they will have the X12 on sale? or something similar to that?
 
Also, what happened to the Emotiva DC 1 DAC, its listed on the website but can't find it on sale anywhere! It also seems to have everything I want. 

Just go here , register on MassDrop, and hit the request button on the X12 https://www.massdrop.com/buy/gustard-dac-x12-usb-version.
You will get an email as soon as 200 other people request it to, and it becomes available again.
 
From what you said about the buzz in your system, it looks like you might have 'some' issues whatever DAC you buy.  If that is the case, you might look at Schiit Wyrd decrapifier as a solution or/and a DC Blocker, and maybe an AC EMI filter (all these things are fairly cheap) http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-trap-blocker-filter-for-toroidal-transformers-assembled-in-case-/131654666919
But this all depends on whether you are USB powering your DAC or using a separate power supply.  I use a split USB cable (power & data are split), the one I use is the Light Harmonic Lightspeed 10g, but that is an extreme $1000 usb cable; however the main principle behind it is after your computer does it's 'handshake' with the DAC, you can unplug the power USB side & just leave the data side connected (in theory removing some of the possible noise from your PC to the DAC)
 
I am just using my system as an example; what ever DAC you buy, you will be tweaking forever (but that is half the fun) 

 
I have just bought a SCHAFFNER 6A FN9222EB-6-06 EMI filter for $10 that connects to an AC IEC cable (removes high frequency noise); tweaks don't need to be expensive, you just need to find out where those 'weakest links' are.
The 'usual suspects' are DC pollution into your AC supply via dimmer switches, refridgerators, SMPS, powerline Ethernet adaptors, (maybe from your PC) etc... & incorrectly shielded/wired interconnects & power cords (you want the shield/braid connected at one side only for an effective EMI shield)
In my particular case, using a Mac Mini, I'm looking at removing the whole power system & replacing it with a custom Linear power supply Uptone MMK, as I believe I have done everything else possible to have a clean system, I just have the whole  EMI shielding, DC Blocking & LPS for the Mac Mini left to do.
 
I am guessing you are using a PC, so I can't help you more with PC interference issues (sorry), but all of the above should still be relevant.
 
Don't worry about it too much, but after you buy your DAC, you can try to fix the noise issues from your PC, or 'filter' the noise to your DAC.
Just a few suggestions

 

 

[sr2002]

@rootscript 
 
Thanks I'll take a loot at it. 
I actually already tried a UR22MKii usb audio interface (CS4270 DAC) with the balanced out to the LSR305s and was very impressed at how much it transformed the speakers, I was basically hearing things I had never heard from them. The distortion interference was gone, so I don't think the PC is an issue. (I'm also using a EVGA superNova 80Gold PSU, which has good rating for low ripple). The issue I think is that the onboard soundcard is not well shielded from stray noise (which is obvious for a cheap Realtek circuit).