[The Monkey]

The MicroDAC is a pretty darn good little DAC.

 

[Sordel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif The MicroDAC is a pretty darn good little DAC.

Glad to hear it, since that's still my most likely purchase

... but since HR's DAC modules go up to Max, I'm guessing that they could do an even better DAC in a case that (also) matched the Desktop aesthetics.

 

[ralphp@optonline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hYdrociTy /img/forum/go_quote.gif noob alert Ive known that in order to have balanced amping, your source needs to be balanced, but there is a balanced dac inside the amp already...so does that mean with this amp, no "balanced" equipment is necessary? Like I can just plug in any old digital signal from cd player and shebang its balanced? Im asking because this all seems unreal for just ~1200 bucks...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif No. You don't need balanced input. Just read the first post: " The rear panel has one pair of balanced inputs and one pair of unbalanced inputs. Yes, you heard right: unbalanced inputs. We are using a balanced line driver chip internally to create a balanced signal from an the single-ended ins---it’s not as good as using a balanced source, but it’s amazingly close and oh so much fun to hear an iPod on balanced cans".

Kees, if you carefully read hYdrociTy's original question, which I quoted above, you will see that he did not ask about using unbalanced inputs, rather he asked about using a digital input from an ordinary or "unbalanced" source, like a CD player or a computer. Apparently the answer, according to Tyll, is yes and that is pretty cool.

Let's explore for just a moment the what all this balanced stuff means for us headphone listeners out here on a practical level.

I presently use my headphones mostly in my bedroom, with my computer or sometimes while watching movies but rarely with my main stereo system. The main reason I don't use headphones with my main stereo is that my listening position is not within arm's reach of the equipment rack. By using balanced connections and digital connections between the headphone amp and my other equipment I would be able to run cables of almost any length with no loss in signal quality and therefore I can place the headphone amp right next to my listening chair and enjoy headphone listening on main stereo along with all my other normal headphone listening locations. More headphone amps, more cables, more money to spend, more fun!!!

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sordel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Glad to hear it, since that's still my most likely purchase ... but since HR's DAC modules go up to Max, I'm guessing that they could do an even better DAC in a case that (also) matched the Desktop aesthetics.

Yes, I see your point better now (after coffee). And I agree, if HeadRoom offered a DAC a step up from the Micro, I would certainly consider it alongside a DAC1 or Lavry, etc.

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, I see your point better now (after coffee). And I agree, if HeadRoom offered a DAC a step up from the Micro, I would certainly consider it alongside a DAC1 or Lavry, etc.

Vincent (and others),

The problem is that a HR Desktop Balanced DAC wouldn't just cost the $299 that the module does. So would you really pay $1000+ for something that you could get included in your amp for less than a third? Because by the time they do a new enclosure, pcbs, and so on you can see how the price could get up there.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

I'm very glad to hear your guys thoughts on the subject of a HR DAC...it is off topic though and really shouldn't be discussed in this thread because I haven't paid for the privilage. So I'll limit my comments to this:

It's not just that it's not what we do, it's also a question of doing it would prevent us from doing other things. We only have so much money and even if a DAC would represent a fairly small R&D and NRE (non-recurring engineering) cost, it would have an effect on how fast we could do other things. Should we push back a Wheatfield HA2 amp to do DACs? Should we push back some of the other important headphone related things (that, daggit, I can't tell you what they are) to squeeze in a stand alone DAC? How about this: should we have delayed the introduction of the Balanced Desktop to have done some DACs? It was a real consideration; it's about the same magnitude of task. Can you see that it was wiser, because it's central to our mission, to have built the Balanced Desktop rather than a DAC? I'll even bet that it would make us more profit to do the DAC, but we would have missed the opportunity to push the headphone amp world envelope on price/performance of balanced amps---and that's important for us: to be a leader in this market. Bottom line, it's not just how hard it is to do something, but what you'd have to give up to do it that comes into the equation. However, I can't stop you from talking about it, and I know your opinions on this subject would be heard. Please feel free to start a thread in the source area like "Why HeadRoom Should Build a DAC" and I'd be happy to listen and participate as I can.

BTW, Jude kindly rushed to put this thread up so I could answer questions befor I headed out to the Florida meet this weekend, but it's comming close and I may have to let my attention here lapse alittle after tomorrow. Please go ahead and ask questions though and I will answer them when I get back.

 

[The Monkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif Vincent (and others), The problem is that a HR Desktop Balanced DAC wouldn't just cost the $299 that the module does. So would you really pay $1000+ for something that you could get included in your amp for less than a third? Because by the time they do a new enclosure, pcbs, and so on you can see how the price could get up there.

Fair enough. I don't know whom I'm kidding anyway as my wife would surely kill me (twice) if I purchased a $1k DAC right now.

EDIT: Thanks for the explanation above, Tyll. In the end, yes, I very much prefer that HeadRoom push the amp envelope than try to enter the DAC market. And with that I'll get back on topic.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif Vincent (and others), The problem is that a HR Desktop Balanced DAC wouldn't just cost the $299 that the module does. So would you really pay $1000+ for something that you could get included in your amp for less than a third? Because by the time they do a new enclosure, pcbs, and so on you can see how the price could get up there.

I would guess that an unbalanced DAC in the desktop portable enclosure would start around $499, and that a balanced DAC in a full height Desktop enclosure would start around $699. Just a blind guess though.

 

[Sordel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by n_maher /img/forum/go_quote.gif The problem is that a HR Desktop Balanced DAC wouldn't just cost the $299 that the module does.

No, I wouldn't pay $1000 for one: as I said, I was thinking more of there being a $200 premium for the separate box, so I would be looking for the Desktop DAC range costing between $449 and $599. Would I pay the $200 premium? Well, I might well do, actually, if by doing so I could get a top-of-the-line element for the same price that I might have otherwise have spent on an entry-level combined solution. It's the same logic, after all, that sends people to separates rather than "systems".

 

[Sordel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would guess that an unbalanced DAC in the desktop portable enclosure would start around $499, and that a balanced DAC in a full height Desktop enclosure would start around $699. Just a blind guess though.

Your informed answer posted just as I was composing my uninformed speculation!

If those prices are roughly right, then you'd see a lot of people looking at the price of the Micro DAC and deciding that the premium for a module upgrade in the Desktop range was within their grasp. Personally, I also think that it would tempt people considering the Millett Hybrid and Desktop Balanced amps. I can't see it putting off people who wanted the one-box solution of the Desktop Amp either, for that matter (although that would be the product in your line exposed to the most pressure).

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sordel /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's the same logic, after all, that sends people to separates rather than "systems".

You'll notice the Desktop series stacks. We've always envisioned the possibility of an FM tuner. Then why not a DAC? Well, part of the reason is that you still have to solve all the switching problems. If the DAC is in our headphone amp, and the headphone amp also has the ability to drive a power amp for speakers and mute it, then by having the DAC and amp in the same enclosure you get rid of one set of cables (DAC to HP amp) and you leave more room for analog in connectors on the back of the HP amp.

There is another reason not to build a DAC---a horrible one--- it makes people have to make thier desktop audio system HeadRoom centric. All the big boys do that: develop company specific standards to make people buy into there systems. I hate to admit that we're doing that, but there are some very pratical reasons the benefit the consumer for doing it. In addition the the better switching schemes mentioned above, there is: the stackability---you can pile those products up three feet and its steady because of the custom bezel; you can share a common power supply with common connectorization and save big bucks; there are more. Bottom-line the way I think about our products (the bitchenest desktop audio systems I can image) forces me to put the DAC in the amp---it's simply the best way to do it in my mind. And you do get that horrible benefit I mentioned: people buying into your system. I can't tell you how may times I've seen the comment that folks want a Micro DAC and amp because they look so cute together. People do value that stuff; heck I think they're cute together, too.

Now I have to admit, that's narrow minded. It means I'm seeing things totally from my own point of view, and not from the view of someone who has a sweet tube rig from Mikhail, needs a sweet DAC, and would love to own something from HeadRoom. I can only really appologize and say that given that there is a limit to what I can afford to do, if I can't even get to all the amps that ought to be done, I can't really justify diverting resources to someting that's even slightly off target. Although you comments about the Millett (and the HA-2 when it comes out) aren't falling on deaf ears.

Aaaaaand money talks. If it IS really easy (and I do think it would be as our DACs may be Joe's finest audio accomplishment to date), and there's a solid market out there (our estimates say there probably is), then it should just make us more money to do the thinge we want to do faster---because we are pretty much money limited and not time or idea or opportunity limited) when it comes to product developement (much of our money for the last two years has gone into inventory increases).

I'm tellin' you we've talked about this thing six ways from Sunday and it doesn't get any easier. All I can really say is we're pretty much done talking about it, and it's not on the official shedule.

I can also say that conversations like these DO get looked at VERY hard; the probability is way better than non-zero; and there's people here drooling to do it---me included.

 

[Sordel]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens /img/forum/go_quote.gif I can't tell you how may times I've seen the comment that folks want a Micro DAC and amp because they look so cute together. People do value that stuff; heck I think they're cute together, too.

I think so as well: it's a major reason why they've been at the top of my buying list ever since I became active on these forums. The argument for manufacturer-centred systems also makes me admire Cyrus's product line, which exhibits that logic in spades. Like Cyrus, and Meridian, I think that you also appeal to technophiles in producing a full-featured audiphile product.

I appreciate your taking so much time to respond, and the way that you have done so so frankly. Given limited R&D resources, I appreciate that there is an opportunity cost to producing any new unit. Moreover, I think that the niche headphone community will probably be more excited by products such as the Desktop Balanced than it would be by a.n.other DAC ... especially one whose signature is already known.

Nevertheless, I think that you might reach more effectively beyond that niche by doing the DAC. You say yourself that in the Micro line people buy the two boxes because they look good together: why should it be any different at the higher pricepoint? Do owners of a fully-featured Cyrus rig really think that the PSU is pulling its sonic weight, or did they buy it to have another matching unit? Audiophile purists such as the Head-Fi mob will take pride in the fact that their systems are visual catastrophes ... you can't really tie people like that into a brand with good looks: they mistrust them in the extreme!

I guess that you know your market ... I just suspect from my own inner materialist demons that there are loads of people out there who might be tempted to buy a Headroom rig if it stacked that little bit higher!

 

[hempcamp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens /img/forum/go_quote.gif The rear panel has one pair of balanced inputs and one pair of unbalanced inputs. Yes, you heard right: unbalanced inputs.

Sorry, one more question/suggestion (i.e. how you can convince me to wait for this instead of buying the Grace or Opera or DAC1 etc):

I remember back in the day the Home (I think) amp had the option of 1 input and 1 pass-through, or 1 input and 1 pre-out, or 2 inputs or something like that. Is there *any* chance a future amp like this would have pre-amps or pass-through as an output option? I know this would be tricky as the back is already crowded, but it would drastically change the utility of this amp at its price point.

--Chris

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hempcamp /img/forum/go_quote.gif how you can convince me to wait for this instead of buying the Grace or Opera or DAC1 etc

I can't. I just build what I see; they build what they see; if you like what you see you will buy it. I don't talk about competitors unless it's good.

As far as getting a loop out, you should just buy some good RCA splitters to put on the back of your amp. It's effectively the same thing as a loop out.

Sordel, your comments are so good that I won't dishonor them with a short answer. I'm leaving for the Florida meet tomorrow morning, so I'm hanging with the family tonight, but I will answer when I can. Knowing that Florida croud though....I don't know what the heck is going to happen over the weekend. I think the meet thread may be over fourty pages now!!! Anyway, I'll be a little out of touch over the weekend, but I'll comment more next week.

Also, dear mods, I'll be contacting Jude to ask him to charge me double for this thread and I can talk about DACs here as a second topic; I'd like people to comment about the idea of a HeadRoom DAC. Is that OK?

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens /img/forum/go_quote.gif ....Also, dear mods, I'll be contacting Jude to ask him to charge me double for this thread and I can talk about DACs here as a second topic; I'd like people to comment about the idea of a HeadRoom DAC. Is that OK?

Not necessary, man--seems on-topic to me, Tyll.