[Sybil]

'Crap'?! Why would you buy expensive 'crap' anyway? Have you done your 'homework' prior to purchasing? I haven't used my m920 in fixed DAC output mode, nor the headphone amplifier separately. But I can assure you neither can be described as 'crap'. The DAC implementation is excellent and Grace have a history of building quality headphone amplifiers. The headamp section in the m920 is capable enough, don't think I need more. With respect to the reviewer, I don't think the review at CA is the most adequate. Check out the few other reviews as well. 

You speak as though I go out of my way to intentionally buy "expensive crap" when as a matter of fact that statement couldn't be further away from the truth. If by "homework" you mean reading this entire thread, all three Amazon reviews, all three Sweetwater reviews, and the "professional" review by Computer Audiophile and Headphone Guru then yep, I've done my homework.

And if we're honest here there isn't really much else to find online about the Grace Design M920.

When I embarked on this journey my only three criteria's were: (A) that the Amp and DAC be a single unit OR made by the same company if not; (B) that the Amp and DAC pairs well with the Sennheiser HD800/S, and; (C) that the entire solution be solid-state.

I've done more reading than I care for the three final solutions which I narrowed down to, which were: (1) the Grace Design M920; (B) the Sennheiser HDVD800, and; (C) the Violectric V200 and V800/V850. Of these three products, the Grace Design M920 had the least amount of information available online by quite a large margin compared to the Violectric and obviously the Sennheiser.

Schiit was originally my number one choice but they were eliminated as their solid-state LISST option for the Mjolnir 2 is currently facing a parts shortage and they informed me that they are unable to provide an ETA with respect to availability anymore.

Ultimately I decided on the Grace Design M920 for one reason and ONE reason only; which is that out of all three solutions I have narrowed down to, it was the only one which I could not find a single outright-negative feedback against.

Oh, and I've also read nothing but praise from anyone who has had the privilege of meeting the Grace brothers in person. Which is definitely very respectable and I do also believe that smaller and perhaps less well-known players should be given their fair chance.

Why do you believe that the review at CA is not the most adequate, however? I ask because just like how I believe that smaller and less well-known manufacturers be given the chance to shine, I also believe that any review should be taken into consideration, even by less well-known reviewers, as long as the reviewer has had nothing to lose when writing their review.

Two major problems I've always found when it comes to audio equipment reviews are that professional reviews are rarely bad, lest the reviewer in question gets blacklisted by a manufacturer and are no longer supplied with free candy. And when it comes to "user" or "community" reviews, there are many individuals who do not wish to admit that they committed to a bad purchase. Everyone likes to believe that they made they right choice and that they spent their money wisely. In that regards, I am neither. I pretty much purchased the M920 almost exclusively with spare change in my PayPal account which I had forgotten about.

Thus I have absolutely no interest in praising it who does not deserve praise. As a matter of fact, I consider my time more valuable and it really does annoy me a lot when I end up with equipment which doesn't perform to my liking as it means that I will have to go through the entire process of finding an alternate solution again.

I do not like upgrading my equipment. I am not an audiophile (despite me earning the title of "audiophile chick" amongst a number of friends solely because I'm the only one who spends more than a couple hundred dollars on my headphones). I merely enjoy listening to quality music and if I can have my Amp and DAC last me a decade then it shall.

Don't get me wrong however. The M920 is not a "bad" product. It's merely, thus far at least, an "okay" product. Does it need more time to shine? Maybe. Could it sound much better on a HD800S once my example finally arrives versus the HD650 I've borrowed for the interim period? Maybe again. For everything that I've read online however, I expected more than "okay."

And hence why I originally said that "I will definitely need two weeks before I can form a better opinion." The purpose of my original question was to allow me to evaluate what I could do to get the most out of the M920 if I find that it still doesn't perform to my liking towards the end of the month. That would allow me to start researching the matter further in the interim period.

Instead however everyone seems too focused and obsessed with my single mention of "crap" when I was merely serving a hypothetical scenario with an example solution to said scenario.

Anyhow, there's no point in continuing this discussion until month-end when I've delivered my final verdict.

 

[Tobes]

So if it's the DAC that's crap then I can use it as a dedicated amp on top of the Gungnir. Or some such.

FWIW I used the Yggdrasil dac into the the balanced inputs of the m920 for about 6 months. The Yggy is a really nice dac with a somewhat different character to the m920.
Anyway I was very happy with the 'improvement' of the Yggy - but after making some upgrades to my source thought I'd re-listen to the m920.
I had both running from Mac/HQplayer via an iFi usb3 reclocker/power regulator. Most listening was done through my Harbeth speakers. The result surprised me.
While the dacs had obvious different characters - it wasn't always clear cut which was preferable or more musically valid. Often I preferred the m920 - which sounded more airey and explicit maybe more exciting (the Yggy sounded somewhat more organic and fleshed out - but the m920 was not lean sounding in absolute terms). 
I ended up selling my Yggy.
 
Now I'm not saying the m920 is 'better' than the Yggy - this would be heresy over in the Yggy thread - just that preference for one or the other may come down to system balance, and even the music being played. YMMV.
 
The m920 HP amp sounds pretty decent to me, but I suppose it's more of a self effacing, honest sound. It's is not going to paper over cracks, 'punch up the sound' or insert an overt 'gorgeous' personality.  I'm not making any specious claims about the HP amp, but generally I prefer less of a 'thumbprint' on my music. I'm confident enough about the sound to use it with the pretty expensive Utopia headphones. Again, YMMV.
 
I've said it a few times before, but what I really love about the m920 is that I can independently control 2 seperate amplifiers (which I use for speakers and my HE6 phones) plus the built in HP amp. I actually don't know another dac which offers this(?). 

 

[Sybil]

Thank you Tobes for your reply, your insight is very much appreciated!~

I've just covered up my M920 and it shall stay that way until my HD800S shows up. I think it's better that I just not bother with it anymore until everything is in place so that I can make a judgement against the system as a whole, rather than as individual parts.

I still want to believe that this can work out for me. You've definitely given me that little bit of extra hope that I need.

What you mention about the Yggdrasil is definitely an eye-opener, however. I had actually never ever considered the Yggdrasil, since based on what I've read the Gungnir Multibit is more likely to be compatible with my tastes. The Ragnarok however was a little tempting, but that would have been one really odd looking stack with the Gungnir on top of the Ragnarok!~

 

[Dreaming Jester]

You speak as though I go out of my way to intentionally buy "expensive crap" when as a matter of fact that statement couldn't be further away from the truth. If by "homework" you mean reading this entire thread, all three Amazon reviews, all three Sweetwater reviews, and the "professional" review by Computer Audiophile and Headphone Guru then yep, I've done my homework.

And if we're honest here there isn't really much else to find online about the Grace Design M920.

When I embarked on this journey my only three criteria's were: (A) that the Amp and DAC be a single unit OR made by the same company if not; (B) that the Amp and DAC pairs well with the Sennheiser HD800/S, and; (C) that the entire solution be solid-state.

I've done more reading than I care for the three final solutions which I narrowed down to, which were: (1) the Grace Design M920; (B) the Sennheiser HDVD800, and; (C) the Violectric V200 and V800/V850. Of these three products, the Grace Design M920 had the least amount of information available online by quite a large margin compared to the Violectric and obviously the Sennheiser.

Schiit was originally my number one choice but they were eliminated as their solid-state LISST option for the Mjolnir 2 is currently facing a parts shortage and they informed me that they are unable to provide an ETA with respect to availability anymore.

Ultimately I decided on the Grace Design M920 for one reason and ONE reason only; which is that out of all three solutions I have narrowed down to, it was the only one which I could not find a single outright-negative feedback against.

Oh, and I've also read nothing but praise from anyone who has had the privilege of meeting the Grace brothers in person. Which is definitely very respectable and I do also believe that smaller and perhaps less well-known players should be given their fair chance.

Why do you believe that the review at CA is not the most adequate, however? I ask because just like how I believe that smaller and less well-known manufacturers be given the chance to shine, I also believe that any review should be taken into consideration, even by less well-known reviewers, as long as the reviewer has had nothing to lose when writing their review.

Two major problems I've always found when it comes to audio equipment reviews are that professional reviews are rarely bad, lest the reviewer in question gets blacklisted by a manufacturer and are no longer supplied with free candy. And when it comes to "user" or "community" reviews, there are many individuals who do not wish to admit that they committed to a bad purchase. Everyone likes to believe that they made they right choice and that they spent their money wisely. In that regards, I am neither. I pretty much purchased the M920 almost exclusively with spare change in my PayPal account which I had forgotten about.

Thus I have absolutely no interest in praising it who does not deserve praise. As a matter of fact, I consider my time more valuable and it really does annoy me a lot when I end up with equipment which doesn't perform to my liking as it means that I will have to go through the entire process of finding an alternate solution again.

I do not like upgrading my equipment. I am not an audiophile (despite me earning the title of "audiophile chick" amongst a number of friends solely because I'm the only one who spends more than a couple hundred dollars on my headphones). I merely enjoy listening to quality music and if I can have my Amp and DAC last me a decade then it shall.

Don't get me wrong however. The M920 is not a "bad" product. It's merely, thus far at least, an "okay" product. Does it need more time to shine? Maybe. Could it sound much better on a HD800S once my example finally arrives versus the HD650 I've borrowed for the interim period? Maybe again. For everything that I've read online however, I expected more than "okay."

And hence why I originally said that "I will definitely need two weeks before I can form a better opinion." The purpose of my original question was to allow me to evaluate what I could do to get the most out of the M920 if I find that it still doesn't perform to my liking towards the end of the month. That would allow me to start researching the matter further in the interim period.

Instead however everyone seems too focused and obsessed with my single mention of "crap" when I was merely serving a hypothetical scenario with an example solution to said scenario.

Anyhow, there's no point in continuing this discussion until month-end when I've delivered my final verdict.

Sybil, no offence meant. Just tried to be helpful. 
 
'And if we're honest here there isn't really much else to find online about the Grace Design M920.' - true and I'm not sure why but then again the m920 is not a mass market product.
 
'When I embarked on this journey my only three criteria's were: (A) that the Amp and DAC be a single unit OR made by the same company if not; (B) that the Amp and DAC pairs well with the Sennheiser HD800/S, and; (C) that the entire solution be solid-state.' - AFAIK the m920 should fit the bill.
 
BTW, I considered the Violectric stack too but ended up with Grace for various reasons.
 
'Why do you believe that the review at CA is not the most adequate, however? I ask because just like how I believe that smaller and less well-known manufacturers be given the chance to shine, I also believe that any review should be taken into consideration, even by less well-known reviewers, as long as the reviewer has had nothing to lose when writing their review.' Fair enough. I have nothing against the reviewer. I just don't feel the review does justice to the product. BTW, since you've researched online, you probably are aware that m920 has been awarded 'Outstanding Technical Achievement'. Tobes obviously kept the m920 and sold the Yggdrasil which says a lot. The latter is DAC only and more expensive than the m920. I doubt you'll be disappointed with the Grace.

 

[Sybil]

via an iFi usb3 reclocker/power regulator

Hmm. How helpful is the iFi iUSB3.0 given that the Grace Design M920 supports asynchronous USB? And according to Grace Design their "USB streaming section is completely ground isolated from the rest of the DAC. The USB streaming controller is powered by the host computer and it transfers the audio data through high speed isolators."

This is something I am not too familiar with but isn't the whole point and purpose of asynchronous USB to use the more reliable clock of the USB DAC rather than that of the USB host computer?

Sybil, no offence meant. Just tried to be helpful. 

None taken Don't sweat it out!~ *hugs*

 

[dwong]

Has anyone heard the M920 in comparison to the Audio-GD Master 11 or NOS 11 DAC/Amps units? I am deciding between the two to be used as an all-in-one unit via USB to my Macbook to drive a pair of Sennheiser HD800S. 

 

[Tobes]

 

Hmm. How helpful is the iFi iUSB3.0 given that the Grace Design M920 supports asynchronous USB? And according to Grace Design their "USB streaming section is completely ground isolated from the rest of the DAC. The USB streaming controller is powered by the host computer and it transfers the audio data through high speed isolators."

This is something I am not too familiar with but isn't the whole point and purpose of asynchronous USB to use the more reliable clock of the USB DAC rather than that of the USB host computer?

IME ground isolation and asynchronous USB are not magic bullets for the issues of USB.
Exactly what is going on with the iFi iUSB3 I'm not sure. In their blurb iFi say it 'reclocks, rebalances and regenerates' among other stuff.  Probably best to go to the iFi site and read what they have to say.
 
As to the effect: In my comparisons to the Yggy I had strong preference for the Yggy over the m920 when I used the Yggy with the iFi and the m920 direct from my Mac Mini. Only with the m920 fed from the iFi did I find it 'competitive' with the Yggy (also fed off the iFi).
Note that I have removed the stock SMPS from my Mini and it's powered by the Uptone JS-2 dc supply and also has the Uptone dc fan mod - so it's probably less noisy than typical computer sources to start with. I'm also using the JS-2 to power the iFi.
 
In my system, I found the iFi allowed a more focused and spacious sound from the m920 - and music also sounded fresher and more interesting. Like I said I (mainly) used my speaker setup to do the comparo with the Yggy, which is more revealing of sound staging and reproduction of space than my HP setups. Again, YMMV.

 

[Tobes]

Don't get me wrong however. The M920 is not a "bad" product. It's merely, thus far at least, an "okay" product. Does it need more time to shine? Maybe. Could it sound much better on a HD800S once my example finally arrives versus the HD650 I've borrowed for the interim period? Maybe again. For everything that I've read online however, I expected more than "okay."

 
Sybil are you able to articulate your lukewarm reaction to the m920 i.e. in what way it hasn't met your expectation?
 
My own take on the m920 is that you shouldn't expect it's going to 'spice' up the sound, nor be particularly forgiving of an overt personality in source or following transducer (though at the limit I think the sound is slightly forgiving rather than ruthless).
The m920 does consistently surprise me in being able to reveal small changes and adjustments upstream and also benefit strongly from better equipment at it's outputs.
 
I haven't heard either the HD650 nor the HD800/800S (I do own the HD600), but reading others impressions they would both appear to have reasonably strong personalities, at least in terms of tonal balance. In fact they seem to be polar opposites. While there are no doubt people who own and use both, there seem also to be many who strongly oppose one or the other. Though it's fair to say both are highly popular and among the most talked about headphones on HeadFi.
I'll be interested to read your reaction to the m920/HD800S.

 

[Michgelsen]

This is something I am not too familiar with but isn't the whole point and purpose of asynchronous USB to use the more reliable clock of the USB DAC rather than that of the USB host computer?

 
Yes, that's the point and purpose, and the ground isolation is particularly useful in preventing ground loops. This is something most USB DACs don't have, which can lead to noise/hum problems, and in that case will need careful connection/cable planning to solve.

 

[Tobes]

Yes, that's the point and purpose, and the ground isolation is particularly useful in preventing ground loops. This is something most USB DACs don't have, which can lead to noise/hum problems, and in that case will need careful connection/cable planning to solve.

I've never had a ground loop caused by a usb connection, however computer grounds are notoriously noisy, so having ground isolation is a good idea.

 

[Michgelsen]

I have (with the Grace m9xx, which hasn't got the USB isolation), and the resulting noise wasn't your typical hum, but it was faint 'computer noises' coming through the outputs. Once the ground loop was resolved, the noises went away, so the incorrect grounding provided a path for these noises to enter the audio path. I had never experienced this with my m903, which was connected in the very same way, because of the isolation.

 

[Sybil]

Sybil are you able to articulate your lukewarm reaction to the m920 i.e. in what way it hasn't met your expectation?

Don't really know how to describe it. Just felt underwhelming, poor sound stage and with off-balanced low/mid/highs. I'm not really into putting my listening expressions into words. I just buy, hope for the best, and enjoy. Let's hope things get better once my HD800S show up.

My own take on the m920 is that you shouldn't expect it's going to 'spice' up the sound, nor be particularly forgiving of an overt personality in source or following transducer (though at the limit I think the sound is slightly forgiving rather than ruthless).

Well that is precisely what I generally look for in my amplifiers and headphones.

My music taste is vast; I listen from anything to classical to jazz to pop to rock to metal to new age to various flavours of trance including psy and goa to game sound tracks to fusions combining any two or more of these genres... and I think you get the idea by now.

If my amplifier or headphone leans favourably to any one of those genres, chances are it'll sound crap and off-balanced on another.

When people ask me what kind of music I listen to, I rarely even know how to answer. I listen to just about anything. And for this reason I need a setup which doesn't apply any sort of personality because I don't want it messing with my broad tastes.

I need my amplifier and headphones to portray my music as-is with no mucking about. And it perplexes me how rare and difficult it is to achieve this.

 

[Tobes]

Don't really know how to describe it. Just felt underwhelming, poor sound stage and with off-balanced low/mid/highs. I'm not really into putting my listening expressions into words. I just buy, hope for the best, and enjoy. Let's hope things get better once my HD800S show up.
Well that is precisely what I generally look for in my amplifiers and headphones.

My music taste is vast; I listen from anything to classical to jazz to pop to rock to metal to new age to various flavours of trance including psy and goa to game sound tracks to fusions combining any two or more of these genres... and I think you get the idea by now.

Like I said, I don't have the HD650 but I do have the HD600.
I wouldn't describe the sound as particularly open (the much discussed Sennheiser veil?) but I think the balance is pretty good across a broad range of genres. However the soundstage of the HD600 is fairly close to my head - and depending on the music it can feel a bit closed in. If I switch to the HE6 phones (which are very power hungry but still sound pretty good from the m920) the soundstage is significantly wider and clarity much better i.e. the m920 reflects the qualities of the HP.
With the (stupidly expensive) Focal Utopia clarity is much better again and the sound is very balanced and refined from deep powerful lows to highs. Still the Utopia with the stock cable can soundstage a little close to the head (reported by many users across different amps). When I swapped in my DIY Kimber cable with the Utopia the soundstage widened considerably with even better presence and articulation. I'm not sure I've ever heard a bigger difference between cables!
What I'm getting at is that the m920's 'sound' is quite changeable. I can well imagine someone listening to it with a certain source or HP and branding the amp with that particular sound.
 
I'm sure with the HD800S you'll get a massive increase in soundstage dimensions - because it's reportedly the champ at that metric. I'd also be pretty confident that the excitement factor will go up as well. My only concern would be that the balance of the 800/800S is often described as somewhat clinical and unforgiving - particularly of poorly recorded/bright material. A lot of owners seem to use them with tube amps to relax the sound a bit. The m920 won't give a lot of wiggle room, though like I said it's slightly forgiving IMO rather than clinically ruthless.
There are certainly m920 users on this thread using the more pedantic (non 'S') HD800 and apparently liking the pairing. Grace have used the HD800 to demo at shows too, so they must think the match up is ok. Hopefully you'll find the combo to your liking.

 

[Sybil]

Just wanted to add; for anyone who buys the Grace Design M920, the Apple Remote is pretty much a must.

Not only is it cheap, it matches the style of the M920 amazing well (much better than pretty much any remote I've ever seen for any piece of audio equipment at least).

And above all; just like the built in menu accessed via the rotary encoder, its operation has been thoroughly well thought out. In addition to volume; activating and deactivating CrossFeed, Mute, and Mono/Stereo toggle is just a button away. It's an absolute joy to use. And since it allows pairing with the Apple remote, no need to worry about any of your Apple devices acting up. I cannot praise Grace Design enough for having intelligently thought this through.

And while I've seen some people complain that the menu seems a little cryptic with just two seven-segment displays, it's easy enough to decipher. Heck, if I can figure it out; so can anyone else! Clap clap!~ Well done chaps

 

[Dreaming Jester]

  Like I said, I don't have the HD650 but I do have the HD600.
I wouldn't describe the sound as particularly open (the much discussed Sennheiser veil?) but I think the balance is pretty good across a broad range of genres. However the soundstage of the HD600 is fairly close to my head - and depending on the music it can feel a bit closed in. If I switch to the HE6 phones (which are very power hungry but still sound pretty good from the m920) the soundstage is significantly wider and clarity much better i.e. the m920 reflects the qualities of the HP.
With the (stupidly expensive) Focal Utopia clarity is much better again and the sound is very balanced and refined from deep powerful lows to highs. Still the Utopia with the stock cable can soundstage a little close to the head (reported by many users across different amps). When I swapped in my DIY Kimber cable with the Utopia the soundstage widened considerably with even better presence and articulation. I'm not sure I've ever heard a bigger difference between cables!
What I'm getting at is that the m920's 'sound' is quite changeable. I can well imagine someone listening to it with a certain source or HP and branding the amp with that particular sound.
 
I'm sure with the HD800S you'll get a massive increase in soundstage dimensions - because it's reportedly the champ at that metric. I'd also be pretty confident that the excitement factor will go up as well. My only concern would be that the balance of the 800/800S is often described as somewhat clinical and unforgiving - particularly of poorly recorded/bright material. A lot of owners seem to use them with tube amps to relax the sound a bit. The m920 won't give a lot of wiggle room, though like I said it's slightly forgiving IMO rather than clinically ruthless.
There are certainly m920 users on this thread using the more pedantic (non 'S') HD800 and apparently liking the pairing. Grace have used the HD800 to demo at shows too, so they must think the match up is ok. Hopefully you'll find the combo to your liking.

I second some of Tobes's observations. I have none of those Senns, with my Grado SR 325is the pairing is good although these cans are known to be on the bright side and, I guess, not very neutral. But it's fun. I think Tobes may be right that the m920 is a bit forgiving but without sacrificing its neutrality and detail retrieval. I can hear every little detail or flaws in a recording or its particular transfer/mastering. OTOH, the m920 is smooth and not fatiguing which is important for audio professionals and casual listeners alike. I don't agree it has a 'poor sound stage' and 'off-balanced low/mid/highs'. It's wonderfully balanced, IMO.