[Sybil]

Haha. I too first thought that there is no balanced out on the Grace M920. There is. There is some good discussion about it and also recommended cabling solutions in a thread I created recently. You can check out my user profile to find the thread. There is only one!~

 

[AudioMan612]

I believe Here2rock was referring to the m920's headphone amp, in which case, he is correct, it is not a balanced amp.  The DAC section does have balanced TRS outputs on the back though.

 

[Sybil]

Hmm... this was mentioned in my other thread:
 
Quote:

 
The M920 has balanced outs at the rear.....just not using XLR outputs, but TRS jacks.
 
I run balanced on my HD800 out of the m920, using two TRS to XLR cables connected to the balanced XLR cable on my HD800.

 
I just sent Grace Design a mail to ask about that since I just bought my M920 directly from them!~

 

[ZGojira]

  Hmm... this was mentioned in my other thread:
 
I just sent Grace Design a mail to ask about that since I just bought my M920 directly from them!~

 
Yes, technically speaking, it's not through the headphone amp....(you can check this through the block diagram in the manual)
 
It's DAC, then pre-amp with volume control.
You are pretty much as close to the DAC as you can get, and IMO, for the HD800, it sounds better than the front HPO

 
It is not always better for everything, but for the HD800, I think it sounds even more detailed 

 

 

[Tobes]

The balanced line outs on the m920 have an output resistance of 95ohms while the headphone output resistance is specified as 1.2ohms.
While the high impedance HD800 might work ok driven from the balanced outputs, damping factor is going to be compromised. 
Obviously it will be compromised to a much greater extent with low impedance headphones - as will output power.
 
The circuit path is not that much different either.
From the DAC I/V stage the signal is routed to the volume chip with independent channels for SE out, Bal out and HP out - then goes to either the headphone amp (AD815AYS), single ended outs (OPA1612) or the balanced outs (2 x That 1606).
Only when jumpering the direct DAC out option to the SE outputs (and bypassing the volume control) is the path really simplified. 
 
This is not to say you might not prefer the sound of the balanced outs for whatever reason.

 

[Sybil]

   
Yes, technically speaking, it's not through the headphone amp....(you can check this through the block diagram in the manual)
 
It's DAC, then pre-amp with volume control.
You are pretty much as close to the DAC as you can get, and IMO, for the HD800, it sounds better than the front HPO

 
It is not always better for everything, but for the HD800, I think it sounds even more detailed 

 

Well that would have been good to know prior.
 
I typically prefer to follow manufacturers recommendation since I rarely like to upgrade and generally use my stuff until it breaks.
 
Your post did give the impression that using the TRS connections behind the M920 to drive headphones was officially supported.
 
Which is not the case.
 
This is what Grace Design had to say about it:
 

The headphone outputs on the m920 are not balanced, and trying to connect headphones to the balanced line level outputs on the rear of the unit would not be a good idea. Those outputs are designed to drive speakers.

 
What's highly annoying is that I already spent 125 quid on my now-useless cables and I am still awaiting a reply from Custom Cans to see if they can cancel the order as it doesn't seem to have shipped yet.

 

[AudioMan612]

Yeah, I don't know why people were suggesting that you could use those connections for headphones.  They are line-out connections, just like the RCA outputs (except those are single-ended of course).  Why would they have headphone outputs in the back?

 

[Dreaming Jester]

I beg your pardon, but this seems like an unnecessary discussion. If you want a balanced headphone amplifier then buy one with such capability. Besides, according to Benchmark and, obviously, Grace, that's not inherently better. Why don't we focus on discussing does the m920 excel in what is actually designed to do, on its features and sound quality. And I think it does.

 

[Sybil]

  I beg your pardon, but this seems like an unnecessary discussion. If you want a balanced headphone amplifier then buy one with such capability. Besides, according to Benchmark and, obviously, Grace, that's not inherently better. Why don't we focus on discussing does the m920 excel in what is actually designed to do, on its features and sound quality. And I think it does.

 
Huh? I don't think anyone here is seriously trying to argue that single-ended is bad.
 
The issue here is that one ZGojira recommended sticking headphones into the balanced *line out* of an amplifier against the recommendation of the manufacturer in order to achieve a balanced connection between headphones and amplifier.
 
I did read Benchmark's comment on balanced not being inherently better than single-ended and see no reason to not believe them.
 
With regards to this discussion being unnecessary; I don't think so. Speaking out against ZGojira's "recommendation" (ahem; if we can even call it that) is certainly a lot better than remaining silent and subsequently ending up with someone casually browsing this thread thinking it's an okay thing to do when it clearly isn't. And since ZGojira is remaining silent I think the last couple of replies by other members are most certainly justified.

 

[ZGojira]

OK....Since I started all this, I suppose I should also end this.
 
Quote:

And since ZGojira is remaining silent I think the last couple of replies by other members are most certainly justified.

 
There wasn't really any more I could add to this thread, thus I didn't post anything.
 
It did not cross my mind that it was against the manufacturer's recommendation., this was because I have been doing this for a long time, and have found it to sound better to me on the HD800.
 
 
I admit that I didn't investigate into the recommendations of the manufacture and I gave the wrong information, and for that I own you an apology. o(_ _)o

 

[Dreaming Jester]

   
Huh? I don't think anyone here is seriously trying to argue that single-ended is bad.
 
The issue here is that one ZGojira recommended sticking headphones into the balanced *line out* of an amplifier against the recommendation of the manufacturer in order to achieve a balanced connection between headphones and amplifier.
 
I did read Benchmark's comment on balanced not being inherently better than single-ended and see no reason to not believe them.
 
With regards to this discussion being unnecessary; I don't think so. Speaking out against ZGojira's "recommendation" (ahem; if we can even call it that) is certainly a lot better than remaining silent and subsequently ending up with someone casually browsing this thread thinking it's an okay thing to do when it clearly isn't. And since ZGojira is remaining silent I think the last couple of replies by other members are most certainly justified.

Agree. All I meant was that one should know his dac/headamp specifics. I had read all about the m920 long before I actually bought it. I think I know it well now.

 

[Sybil]

So I just received mine and I will definitely need two weeks before I can form a better opinion.

In the interim however; for everyone who owns or has owned Grace M920 and used it in all of the following combinations; standalone, as strictly a DAC, and as strictly an Amp; how would you rate the performance of each configuration out of 10?

The review at Computer Audiophile for example rates the DAC as 9/10 and Amp as 6/10.

I'm starting to feel that I might have better spent my money on a Schiit Gungnir Multibit & Mjolnir 2 which costs almost exactly the same. Though now that I actually have the M920 I might choose to just upgrade the weakest link.

So if it's the DAC that's crap then I can use it as a dedicated amp on top of the Gungnir. Or some such.

 

[m8o]

? If you attribute "crap" to it in any way, you should part with it.

From all I know about it, it should definitely be a better DAC than headamp. It's transparency as a straight analog preamp is also highly touted. You don't agree I gather?

 

[Sybil]

What I was implying was that if it is the DAC that is weaker than the Amp then I wouldn't mind considering trying another DAC out and vice versa.

Parting with it isn't a consideration at the moment since I'm not really in a position to lose a couple hundred dollars more into thin air (and given that you can get demo units at 25% off on eBay I really wonder how much lower I'd have to go before being able to sell it). Besides, someone else had already contributed to that as per the last couple of posts.

If it's the DAC that's the better component however then oh dear; shouldn't have parted with my DAC2.5 from 2010.

 

[Dreaming Jester]

So I just received mine and I will definitely need two weeks before I can form a better opinion.

In the interim however; for everyone who owns or has owned Grace M920 and used it in all of the following combinations; standalone, as strictly a DAC, and as strictly an Amp; how would you rate the performance of each configuration out of 10?

The review at Computer Audiophile for example rates the DAC as 9/10 and Amp as 6/10.

I'm starting to feel that I might have better spent my money on a Schiit Gungnir Multibit & Mjolnir 2 which costs almost exactly the same. Though now that I actually have the M920 I might choose to just upgrade the weakest link.

So if it's the DAC that's crap then I can use it as a dedicated amp on top of the Gungnir. Or some such.

 
'Crap'?! Why would you buy expensive 'crap' anyway? Have you done your 'homework' prior to purchasing? I haven't used my m920 in fixed DAC output mode, nor the headphone amplifier separately. But I can assure you neither can be described as 'crap'. The DAC implementation is excellent and Grace have a history of building quality headphone amplifiers. The headamp section in the m920 is capable enough, don't think I need more. With respect to the reviewer, I don't think the review at CA is the most adequate. Check out the few other reviews as well.