[musingclouds]

I had the opportunity to compare the IO-12 with the Solitaire T in a shop that has about all important headphones on the planet (at least the ones below 10k Euros). I know this is a totally unfair comparison because it was only 15 min and because I’m owning the IO-12 and am used to it, but still: I must admit that I did not understand the ST, and this was surprising to me. I know it must be an excellent headphone from what I read here, but to me, and in comparison, it sounded somewhat like, sorry sorry, music from a tin can. Yes, the soundstage was maybe deep, but in comparison to the IO-12 it had almost no width, and the midrange seemed overly emphasized to me. A tin can with water in it … sorry again, this is of course exaggerated and not meant as an insult!! Maybe something was wrong with the ST they had on display, or with my ears or brain. But luckily for me, I felt no desire to acquire the ST in addition to my IO-12.

I blame this mostly to the fact that I'm now used to (and somewhat addicted to) the IO-12. I had a similar experience in the 45 min before the IO-ST comparison that I spent listening to HD800S, Susvara, Bravura, and Clear MG (they did not have an Utopia on display that day). I was not impressed at all by the Bravura and only thought "wow" when I listened to the HD800S in comparison (I have this one at home!). The Clear had less treble and seemed good but not necessary to me, and the Susvara had maybe a bit more precision than the HD, but soundstage and imaging was only different, not better to me (and despite the excellent amplifier, the Susvara was clearly underpowered). So also here, I left the shop being content with what I already have at home. Isn't that great?

So in short, I probably agree to what was said in this thread: that to really come up with an informed opinion, a brief visit to a shop does sadly not suffice; apparently, one must listen and compare for weeks. And the ST had maybe no chance to impress me in those 15 min, coming from the top-notch headphones I listed above. But I found the IO-12 much closer to those cans than the ST. And yes, it has to do with the music I used for the comparison. This was Mahler 5 second movement, with Berlin Phil and Dudamel (not on Youtube, I'm afraid) and Trains from Porcupine Tree. I thought the ST does Porcupine Tree much better than Mahler. Or rather, the IO-12 was much better for this orchestral recording with a huge soundstage than the ST. Only IMHO, of course.

I felt the same way about the Ts. Like I know that they are “good” but it just didn’t work for me

 

[aaronjensen]

I had the opportunity to compare the IO-12 with the Solitaire T in a shop that has about all important headphones on the planet (at least the ones below 10k Euros). I know this is a totally unfair comparison because it was only 15 min and because I’m owning the IO-12 and am used to it, but still: I must admit that I did not understand the ST, and this was surprising to me. I know it must be an excellent headphone from what I read here, but to me, and in comparison, it sounded somewhat like, sorry sorry, music from a tin can. Yes, the soundstage was maybe deep, but in comparison to the IO-12 it had almost no width, and the midrange seemed overly emphasized to me. A tin can with water in it … sorry again, this is of course exaggerated and not meant as an insult!! Maybe something was wrong with the ST they had on display, or with my ears or brain. But luckily for me, I felt no desire to acquire the ST in addition to my IO-12.

I blame this mostly to the fact that I'm now used to (and somewhat addicted to) the IO-12. I had a similar experience in the 45 min before the IO-ST comparison that I spent listening to HD800S, Susvara, Bravura, and Clear MG (they did not have an Utopia on display that day). I was not impressed at all by the Bravura and only thought "wow" when I listened to the HD800S in comparison (I have this one at home!). The Clear had less treble and seemed good but not necessary to me, and the Susvara had maybe a bit more precision than the HD, but soundstage and imaging was only different, not better to me (and despite the excellent amplifier, the Susvara was clearly underpowered). So also here, I left the shop being content with what I already have at home. Isn't that great?

So in short, I probably agree to what was said in this thread: that to really come up with an informed opinion, a brief visit to a shop does sadly not suffice; apparently, one must listen and compare for weeks. And the ST had maybe no chance to impress me in those 15 min, coming from the top-notch headphones I listed above. But I found the IO-12 much closer to those cans than the ST. And yes, it has to do with the music I used for the comparison. This was Mahler 5 second movement, with Berlin Phil and Dudamel (not on Youtube, I'm afraid) and Trains from Porcupine Tree. I thought the ST does Porcupine Tree much better than Mahler. Or rather, the IO-12 was much better for this orchestral recording with a huge soundstage than the ST. Only IMHO, of course.

I've tried both. I kept the ST and I like the sound there in many songs, but I agree that in some it sounds a bit tin-can-like. I don't know what causes that. Something like the Daft Punk album doesn't have much oomph to it. I don't know how to explain it. But then I listen to some acoustic recording and it sounds insanely life-like. And some EDM sounds great too. Not sure what the factor is.

 

[jthomp72]

I've currently got the Bathys, having owned or extensively tried all other major ANC wireless competitors (minus the Solitaire). Out of all those ivd tried, I think the Bathys are definitely the winners in terms of clarity, but I do find them underwhelming sometimes. I think it's perhaps the dynamics don't quite hit right in certain situations.

For those that have tried the Bathys and io-12 - what are the key differences in tonal qualities? How big is the jump in sound quality? I'm looking to audition the io-12, but want to give myself a good indication of what differences I'm going to hear.

Thanks

It’s got a wider soundstage than the bathys, and a better tone to it. The bathys to me felt a little harsh in the higher end and just had a fatiguing quality to them after an hour or two that I will say the iO-12 hasn’t had so far.

 

[subwoof3r]

Received my unit 2 days ago.

I don't know how to begin the story. It's a love and hate feeling with those headphones, clearly.
Currently having good reflection to know if I will send them back (I'll give myself some time to think, but as I write these lines, I'm 70% sure I'll send them back).

The comfort is really something (in a bad way), I've got a normal head I'd say, but it's complicated to find the right seal so that your ears are perfectly enclosed without anything touching. Once finally adjusted, it's impossible to make the slightest movement with them, otherwise the pads slide back very easily, so when listening you even have to tilt your head forward and not move, which isn't very practical...

Soundwise, clearly: no "wow" feeling at all at the first listen. Bass looks bloaty and boomy, with much more bass than I expected.
Upper bass/lower mids are unnatural and congested to my ears.
And highs clearly lacks details.
I'am unsure if I received a faulty unit but I'am VERY far from what you guys feels about this so beloved IO-12. To me, it's a disapointment.
I tried to burn them for more than 24h now (since I truely believe in burn-in process), they seems to open a bit, not much for now and not enough for me to really appreciate them.
Over time, I got used to this very strange comfort and sound, which ended up sounding pretty good, but not on all tracks, as these aren't all-rounder headphones.
In terms of sound, I preferred (VERY MUCH) analog 3.5mm (passive). Coupled with my Chord Mojo 2, though, it's a pure delight. With this type of connection, I really appreciate the sound of these headphones. Little bass, but very well controlled, pleasant mids, and enough detail to be enjoyable.
Things quickly turn sour when I try USB in Active mode (hifi + ANC OFF). First of all, bass mode is clearly (in my opinion) to be avoided, as the headphones are already very bassy from the outset, so there's no need to add any more.
In this mode, the bass is already overpowering, and the midrange is unnatural and even annoying. And a great deal of detail is lost in the highs.
In third place for me comes the bluetooth hifi + ANC OFF mode, which seems even better than the integrated USB DAC mode. I haven't yet been able to test more than aptx-HD (due to the limitations of my Smartphone), so I'm waiting for a USB dongle with aptx Adaptive to do the test again.
Concerning the other modes: I don't see any difference with the ANC ON and transparent modes. But they do have the merit of being functional (not yet tested in outdoor noise mode, though).

In short, I've got a total of 15 days to return the product, so I'm giving it a few more days to burn-in and then I'll make my choice.
In the meantime, I was going to go for the T+A, but it looks like there's even more bass, which worries me a bit.

For the record, I'm coming from an ATH-MSR7b (wired). These headphones are known for their rather bright signature, with little bass but extraordinary midrange (for the price) and lots of detail. The soundstage is also extremely wide (unlike the IO-12).

Well, I hope I haven't spoiled the fun for those of you patiently waiting for your copy, but for me it's a big dilemma at the moment, and I'll let you know my verdict in a few days).

 

[C_Lindbergh]

There's just something about the way the T's reproduces the sound of a track... Can't really describe it in any other terms, but it's addicting.

However I definitely agree that the Dalis has a way larger sound stage.

But in the end... The small non-leather earcups is what made me choose the Dalis.

Comfort is as important as sound quality in my book.

 

[aaronjensen]

I was going to go for the T+A, but it looks like there's even more bass, which worries me a bit.

I've had both. Never did it ever seem like the T+A had more bass or too much bass. If anything they felt lacking, but that's probably me being used to Bose. The larger drivers of the IO-12 could be felt more. Btw, IO-12 has more bass w/ ANC on. Turn it off to get less.

 

[zolkis]

So in short, I probably agree to what was said in this thread: that to really come up with an informed opinion, a brief visit to a shop does sadly not suffice; apparently, one must listen and compare for weeks. And the ST had maybe no chance to impress me in those 15 min, coming from the top-notch headphones I listed above. But I found the IO-12 much closer to those cans than the ST. And yes, it has to do with the music I used for the comparison. This was Mahler 5 second movement, with Berlin Phil and Dudamel (not on Youtube, I'm afraid) and Trains from Porcupine Tree. I thought the ST does Porcupine Tree much better than Mahler. Or rather, the IO-12 was much better for this orchestral recording with a huge soundstage than the ST. Only IMHO, of course.

I've been thinking about this as well. For one, maybe the units displayed in hifi shops might be more worn out (but also run in, if it's the case), maybe a factor for variations.

The ST has been positive experience for me (even when compared with the IO-12), but it was completely different in character than what I expected from the reviews and opinions from its thread. That was an eye opener. Since I liked the IO-12 more anyway, and the price is higher, I didn't pursue it for now.

In the meantime I managed to adjust the IO-12 so that it fulfills my expectations really well.

I've currently got the Bathys, having owned or extensively tried all other major ANC wireless competitors (minus the Solitaire). Out of all those ivd tried, I think the Bathys are definitely the winners in terms of clarity, but I do find them underwhelming sometimes. I think it's perhaps the dynamics don't quite hit right in certain situations.

For those that have tried the Bathys and io-12 - what are the key differences in tonal qualities? How big is the jump in sound quality? I'm looking to audition the io-12, but want to give myself a good indication of what differences I'm going to hear.

My first impression of the Bathys was very positive, then another unit was a disappointment (via the same setup), then consecutive experiences somewhat stabilizing, but when compared with the IO-12, it was very clear for me they don't play at the same level as the IO-12. IMHO the IO-12 is well worth the extra price.

 

[zolkis]

I don't know how to begin the story. It's a love and hate feeling with those headphones, clearly.

Wow, similar first feelings here. But give them more time...

The comfort is really something (in a bad way), I've got a normal head I'd say, but it's complicated to find the right seal so that your ears are perfectly enclosed without anything touching. Once finally adjusted, it's impossible to make the slightest movement with them, otherwise the pads slide back very easily, so when listening you even have to tilt your head forward and not move, which isn't very practical...

If you have protruding ears, you need deeper pads. But if you can, please try the IO-12 with IO-6 ear pads, and check whether they work for you (for comfort), and if they fix the mixed sound impressions.

Soundwise, clearly: no "wow" feeling at all at the first listen. Bass looks bloaty and boomy, with much more bass than I expected.
Upper bass/lower mids are unnatural and congested to my ears.
And highs clearly lacks details.

Same, same, same (at first impressions).

I'am unsure if I received a faulty unit but I'am VERY far from what you guys feels about this so beloved IO-12. To me, it's a disapointment.

A good question is what kind of variations might there be, for production reasons.

I tried to burn them for more than 24h now (since I truely believe in burn-in process), they seems to open a bit, not much for now and not enough for me to really appreciate them.
Over time, I got used to this very strange comfort and sound, which ended up sounding pretty good, but not on all tracks, as these aren't all-rounder headphones.

Give them continuous run-in for a week, nights from analog input (Off) via headphone amp, daytime via Bluetooth and USB.

In terms of sound, I preferred (VERY MUCH) analog 3.5mm (passive). Coupled with my Chord Mojo 2, though, it's a pure delight. With this type of connection, I really appreciate the sound of these headphones. Little bass, but very well controlled, pleasant mids, and enough detail to be enjoyable.

More balanced, right, but in comparison with similarly priced closed headphones, I found them flat and boring.

Things quickly turn sour when I try USB in Active mode (hifi + ANC OFF). First of all, bass mode is clearly (in my opinion) to be avoided, as the headphones are already very bassy from the outset, so there's no need to add any more.
In this mode, the bass is already overpowering, and the midrange is unnatural and even annoying. And a great deal of detail is lost in the highs.

All this is visible also in measurements. The drivers have this character. But Dali managed to make a great product out of this nevertheless.

In third place for me comes the bluetooth hifi + ANC OFF mode, which seems even better than the integrated USB DAC mode. I haven't yet been able to test more than aptx-HD (due to the limitations of my Smartphone), so I'm waiting for a USB dongle with aptx Adaptive to do the test again.
Concerning the other modes: I don't see any difference with the ANC ON and transparent modes. But they do have the merit of being functional (not yet tested in outdoor noise mode, though).

I do hear a difference between transparency mode and ANC On (the first is phasey and bad).

In short, I've got a total of 15 days to return the product, so I'm giving it a few more days to burn-in and then I'll make my choice.
In the meantime, I was going to go for the T+A, but it looks like there's even more bass, which worries me a bit.

Opinions differ at this. Maybe I am the one to blame for accusing the ST for being bassy, but given our similar perception of the IO-12 so far, I risk saying that you might like the ST bass character more, since its bass peak sits much deeper, it's more like a warm sub-bass lift -- yet it's a considerable lift IME.
Besides the IO-12, the ST is capable or rendering good timbres (which are masked in both IMHO, but in different ways).

I suggest you do the same what I did: listen to the IO-6 as well, and try the IO-6 pads on the IO-12.
If you like that, I can give more tips. If not, then forget the IO-12.

 

[angelom]

Concerning the other modes: I don't see any difference with the ANC ON and transparent modes. But they do have the merit of being functional (not yet tested in outdoor noise mode, though).

You must trying this 2 modes again and paying more attention (in quiet environment) because you will hearing a clear difference from “hi-fi” + ANC Off. With ANC On you will hearing a not big, but clearly audible, bass boost. With transparency mode you will hearing that is very more similar to “hi-fi and ANC Off, maybe indistinguishable sonically.

 

[subwoof3r]

@zolkis & @angelom many thanks for your tips

I'm sorry, I may have been a little hasty in my previous comments.

This headphone clearly has something bewitching about it. The more I listen to it, the more I find something magical about it.
I haven't really talked about its qualities yet, but it clearly has a lot of them!
I'll discuss this at greater length, but I really need to take the time to get to know him first.
Appointment after a week's burn-in for something more serious

 

[ricthaman]

Just got my pair in. Will not comment on SQ yet as it's just been an hour or so, and I have a cold so my ears might be tricking me hehe.

But I did notice 2 things:
- The voice prompt sounds a bit grainy. Anybody else experience this?
- Used them passively on my DX320/amp13 and must say they are rather power hungry in passive mode which I didn't expect. Might actually be a good thing.

Cheers

 

[zolkis]

- The voice prompt sounds a bit grainy. Anybody else experience this?

Somewhat. Voice prompts are not expected to be of high end quality, or a mesmerizing voice, but over time I realized the perceived smoothness partly relates to the plushness (and height) of the ear pads, so give it some time to warm up, break in and get a more consistently good seal (also dependent on glasses).

Also partly related to driver run-in, which (in my case) is imagined to improve smoothness and to some extent, the bass clarity, ease, flow, extension, definition.

 

[zolkis]

After playing a bit with the IO-6 pads, I still like them.
I will keep them alongside the IO-12 pads, mainly for travel, and for occasional tonal change.

A short summary of the IO-6 pads on the IO-12:
- They are smaller: 90 mm external, 50 mm internal diameter.
The IO-12 pads have an ideal 50x70 mm inner opening, and 90x110 mm external dimensions.
This affects mainly sound stage, and to some extent tonality.
- They make the IO-12 more portable: somehow they cross a fine line in that.
- They have slightly less depth, which IME is the main reason for them sounding with slightly different tonality.
- Tonality: the bass is more balanced, mids and treble stay similar, sound stage is smaller.

Since the IO-6 pads are about the same price as the 3D printed IO-6 pads adaptors, I do recommend these also for that, because you can take the ear pads apart (I can explain how), and use the plastic assembly as a sub-assembly for attaching 3rd party ear pads using double sided adhesive tape patches. For instance, anything from Dekoni, AliExpress, Stax, etc. that have an inner opening smaller than (90 mm - glue strap width), which is basically all of them. That would allow bigger/ deeper ear pads, or ones that sound good for you.

My guidelines for ear pads, based on a long experience with a lot of them (IMHO).
The ideal inner opening for the IO-12 (and in general, most for headphones, as this is coming from head shapes and hearing) is about 70 x 90 mm (same as now).
The ideal external diameter should be the smallest possible that would provide good enough support with the given internal diameters. The Dali IO-12 pads are close to that.
The ideal height, for pure sonic reasons, with the current foam (since it's actually coming from the weight of the foam), would be about 60% of the current depth, resulting in about 4.3 g foam insert weight (as opposed to the current 7.1 grams). This makes a qualitative change in the sound, all things snap in place, bass is nice, round, deep, no overhang, clarity in mids and highs is far better, etc. etc. (More details in PM.)
But by using different foam density / strength, the height could be kept the same as now. Also if the external dimensions were smaller. What matters is the total weight of the internal foam. (This is based on experiments. I don't need you to believe it, or start a theoretical discussion, but you can verify it by experiments).

It is up to you where you stop:
- Level 0: using the original IO-12 pads (99.99...% of people, no need to write separate posts about who wants this);
- Level 1: use both the IO-12 pads and IO-6 pads (me included);
- Level 2: reuse the IO-6 sub-assembly for 3rd party ear pads (I don't see the need for my use cases, but I can help those who want it, contact me in PM);
- or, alternatively, Level -1: modify the original IO-12 pads. IF you want a quality jump, are fine with more shallow pads, and risk the cost of new IO-12 pads (99 euros), then contact me in PM, I can explain how to do it in a 99% reversible way. I am not making any mods for others, no time for that. Guys from my neighborhood can come over to check all this out.

I don't want to create a controversy or a big discussion around this, so let's leave it at this. Take anything from this, or leave it.
If it's considered off-topic, I can delete (most of) this post, that is the part after the short summary. Thanks.

 

[hutzelmeier]

It is up to you where you stop:
- Level 0: using the original IO-12 pads (99.99...% of people, no need to write separate posts about who wants this);
- Level 1: use both the IO-12 pads and IO-6 pads (me included);
- Level 2: reuse the IO-6 sub-assembly for 3rd party ear pads (I don't see the need for my use cases, but I can help those who want it, contact me in PM);
- or, alternatively, Level -1: modify the original IO-12 pads. IF you want a quality jump, are fine with more shallow pads, and risk the cost of new IO-12 pads (99 euros), then contact me in PM, I can explain how to do it in a 99% reversible way. I am not making any mods for others, no time for that. Guys from my neighborhood can come over to check all this out.

Thanks, very interesting! For me, it will probably be Level 0 for the moment, but only out of laziness.

 

[hutzelmeier]

I posted this one a while ago, holding up well so far.

ProCase Headphone Case for Sony... https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B09B7CXQYH?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share

I ordered those and yes, with a bit of pressing, the IO-12 fits in, but you have to squeeze the earpads a bit, right. I don't know if I can stand that with my still new IO-12 ...