[angelom]

I'm wondering, if that was measured in Wired Active mode, or Wired Passive mode (and if Wired Active, if it was via USB-C or the analogue wire). I would expect a difference between analogue and BT mode if only based on how your headphone-amp drives the headphones vs how the internal DAC / AMP drives them!

But by the same logic I would not expect a major difference between BT vs USB wired active.

Wired Active via the analogue wire would really depend on your amp and how that interacts with the DAC/AMP onboard the headphone.

This is important because in fully passive mode (headphone switched off with 3.5mm cable) the sound is very different to when the headphone is switched on -- in Hi-fi + ANC off is the least different, BUT you can still very clearly hearing the difference.

 

[zolkis]

I'm wondering, if that was measured in Wired Active mode, or Wired Passive mode (and if Wired Active, if it was via USB-C or the analogue wire). I would expect a difference between analogue and BT mode if only based on how your headphone-amp drives the headphones vs how the internal DAC / AMP drives them!

But by the same logic I would not expect a major difference between BT vs USB wired active.

Wired Active via the analogue wire would really depend on your amp and how that interacts with the DAC/AMP onboard the headphone.

Right, valid observations. All these make some difference, but the main differences were between the ANC Off vs. the ANC On modes, vs. these in BT, analogue or USB (in active mode).
If there is interest, I can push that comparison, too (though not today any more as it's quite late here), but I thought it was not really relevant and a lot of clutter since the curves are close.

It was mentioned only for the context of comparing with the D7200, for which I used all modes on the IO-12 (in Hifi + ANC On, and Off) that might put the IO-12 in best possible light, but the comment about scaling with the amplification obviously referred to the IO-12 used with the analog cable in passive mode.

Why I pulled the D7200 comparison: mainly because they have similar tonality, and because I expected the IO-12 to be comparable with wired headphones (at least in one mode) and even e-stats (as per Dali's claims), but they are far from that (as some other reviews noted as well).

 

[angelom]

FR of Hifi + ANC On, Base + ANC On and Hifi + ANC Off settings.

Maybe, if possible, you can changing in your post(s) and graphs the word "base" with the correct word "bass" because this maybe creating some confusion -- this 2 words have very different meanings, specially relevant in the context of sound.

So, we have 4 sound modes (apart from fully passive with 3.5mm cable):
"Hi-fi" and ANC Off.
"Hi-fi" and ANC On.
"Bass" and ANC Off.
"Bass" and ANC On.

 

[zolkis]

Maybe, if possible, you can changing in your post(s) and graphs the word "base" with the correct word "bass" because this maybe creating some confusion -- this 2 words have very different meanings, specially relevant in the context of sound.

So, we have 4 sound modes (apart from fully passive with 3.5mm cable):
"Hi-fi" and ANC Off.
"Hi-fi" and ANC On.
"Bass" and ANC Off.
"Bass" and ANC On.

Edited the post. I used "Base" because the voice in the headphones tells that . But indeed it's called "Bass" in the docs. Confusing.

BTW there is passive and active analog mode, the latter (and also USB wired and BT wireless) supports the combinations between Hifi/Bass and ANC On / Transparency / ANC Off. So there are in total 10 sound modes, as also listed above.

 

[chesebert]

Are the batteries replaceable? what’s the cost?

 

[zolkis]

Some late night listening iterations over the IO-12 modes, compared with other wired headphones, conclude the day for me:

1. In any of the wired modes, the IO-12 does not make any financial sense to me, as there are a lot of cheaper wired headphones that sound better (or much better).
Among these wired modes, I like most the passive analog mode (least amount of artifacts, but also a bit boring and flat), then the wired USB is the best among the Dali IO-12 modes, and then the wired active and Bluetooth sound close, maybe the former a bit better than aptX Adaptive, but the comparison makes little sense, because:

2. For me, the IO-12 only makes sense in wireless mode, and it's one of the best choices out there for that, either in Hifi + ANC Off, or in ANC On + EQ.

When you compare with wired headphones, contrary to Dali's claims, driver against driver, the mentioned wired closed backs have far better drivers (also with much higher efficiency).

I am back where I said I would be so happy to see Denon make a wireless version from the D7200 (and D9200), or even the D5200. It would surely wipe the floor with all current wireless headphones for about the same cost.

I am both excited for the comparatively excellent wireless Dali IO-12 (currently a keeper) and disappointed about Dali's blown-out claims and marketing (which doesn't make the IO-12 any less good, but the expectations need to be re-framed).

I will try the Dali IO-6 and its pads on the IO-12, and perhaps I'll get the 3D printed ear pad adapter to the IO-12 and then I could try a lot of other ear pads as well.

 

[Dalmonegrig]

In any of the wired modes, the IO-12 does not make any financial sense to me, as there are a lot of cheaper wired headphones that sound better (or much better).
Denon D5200, D7200, D9200.

What other headphones besides Denon?

 

[jthomp72]

Some late night listening iterations over the IO-12 modes, compared with other wired headphones, conclude the day for me:

1. In any of the wired modes, the IO-12 does not make any financial sense to me, as there are a lot of cheaper wired headphones that sound better (or much better).
Among these wired modes, I like most the passive analog mode (least amount of artifacts, but also a bit boring and flat), then the wired USB is the best among the Dali IO-12 modes, and then the wired active and Bluetooth sound close, maybe the former a bit better than aptX Adaptive, but the comparison makes little sense, because:

2. For me, the IO-12 only makes sense in wireless mode, and it's one of the best choices out there for that, either in Hifi + ANC Off, or in ANC On + EQ.

When you compare with wired headphones, contrary to Dali's claims, driver against driver, the mentioned wired closed backs have far better drivers (also with much higher efficiency).

I am back where I said I would be so happy to see Denon make a wireless version from the D7200 (and D9200), or even the D5200. It would surely wipe the floor with all current wireless headphones for about the same cost.

I am both excited for the comparatively excellent wireless Dali IO-12 (currently a keeper) and disappointed about Dali's blown-out claims and marketing (which doesn't make the IO-12 any less good, but the expectations need to be re-framed).

I will try the Dali IO-6 and its pads on the IO-12, and perhaps I'll get the 3D printed ear pad adapter to the IO-12 and then I could try a lot of other ear pads as well.

This is probably the biggest take away for me from this entire thread and what I am looking for when I get these headphones is that I just can’t judge them on the merits versus a comparatively priced wired headphone. I am looking for these to be the absolute best wireless headphones I can buy. If they do that they have done their job and I will keep them. If not they go back.

 

[angelom]

BTW there is passive and active analog mode, the latter (and also USB wired and BT wireless) supports the combinations between Hifi/Bass and ANC On / Transparency / ANC Off. So there are in total 10 sound modes, as also listed above.

Is obvious from following this thread, reading all online reviews and watching YT videos, that you also have a USB-C to USB-C cable mode and a 3.5mm cable active mode, but this 2 modes are very similar in sound signature to bluetooth using the 4 basic sound modes I mentioning before.

The real sound differences are the 4 modes that I speaking about before plus the fully passive 3.5mm cable mode. Transparency mode isn't really counting because people don't using very much this and is have (practically) the same sound as ANC off, meaning that you don't have a bass boost either.

 

[angelom]

2. For me, the IO-12 only makes sense in wireless mode, and it's one of the best choices out there for that, either in Hifi + ANC Off, or in ANC On + EQ.

When you compare with wired headphones, contrary to Dali's claims, driver against driver, the mentioned wired closed backs have far better drivers (also with much higher efficiency).

I am back where I said I would be so happy to see Denon make a wireless version from the D7200 (and D9200), or even the D5200. It would surely wipe the floor with all current wireless headphones for about the same cost.

In this other short iO-12 thread, this person, with experience with wired-only headphones, only listening to, and only have interest in, the iO-12 in fully passive mode and his/her opinion is apparently (very) different from yours.

 

[musingclouds]

In this other short iO-12 thread, this person, with experience with wired-only headphones, only listening to, and only have interest in, the iO-12 in fully passive mode and his/her opinion is apparently (very) different from yours.

Isn’t that expected though given how sound is perceived subjectively by everyone?

 

[zolkis]

In this other short iO-12 thread, this person, with experience with wired-only headphones, only listening to, and only have interest in, the iO-12 in fully passive mode and his/her opinion is apparently (very) different from yours.

Not necessarily excluding each other. You can take that review at face value, with the comparisons it was made with.
I can see why that review says what it says - the only thing a reader never knows is the exact context in which these statements were made, and how can they be translated to the readers' context. Which is why we need multiple inputs to triangulate / infer conclusions relevant to us. Never trust single opinions, even measurements, including mine.

I used other comparisons. These are just single inputs, not revelations, and YMMV.
You can also do the same comparisons and make your own assessments. Sharing them here would be beneficial to everyone.

 

[zolkis]

What other headphones besides Denon?

At least the Denon D5200, D7200, (D9200), Fostex TH900 (used price), Senn HD650, HD600, a couple of old Stax (not counting my better e-stats) - and then all the headphones that are comparable with these could possibly sound better than the wired passive or active IO-12 -- to be checked.

If I only got the IO-12 and listened to nothing else, after some brain adaptation I'd consider them pretty good even in wired modes for the experience they provide.
Nothing really broken there, only when you compare with some cheaper wired headphones you realize the drivers are not that great, and for that money they are not competitive. Which is why I said they make no financial sense.

I can say that the IO-12 as a solution is far better than its drivers would let me believe. I was really let down by these drivers, after all the SMC mambo-jambo Dali pulled off.
I had high expectations from the IO-12 based on the apparently good ear pad design, the design choices made, ergonomics, and all that driver marketing.
Actually I am amazed how good sound Dali managed to optimize given these drivers. I have the hunch if they replaced the driver and adapted the SW, they could make far, far better headphones. Maybe in the future.

I still want to check the change IO-6 pads would make, before deciding to keep it or return it, and eventually do a direct comparison with the Bathys (IIRC that had more artifacts), the PX8 (which was too boomy and was harder to EQ) or the PX7s2 FWIW, but out of memory I don't think they would beat the IO-12. The T+A ST might be worth checking, too, but I don't have possibility to try it without buying it, and the IO-12 was more sympathetic.
Besides, I used to have very good Dali speakers in the past (Grand series, bassy too) and have good memories with the brand, so no prejudices there, quite the contrary.

 

[angelom]

Which is why we need multiple inputs to triangulate / infer conclusions relevant to us. Never trust single opinions, even measurements, including mine.

This is one statement where we can agreeing 100%

You can also do the same comparisons and make your own assessments. Sharing them here would be beneficial to everyone.

Maybe you don't reading all this thread before you starting posting here? In all this thread I speaking in different posts about the iO-12 in relation to the Solitaire T, the ML 5909, the HD800 and the very excellent custom IEM UERM. I have in my possession several (very) reference/neutral sounding headphones and earphones: HD800, HD600, ML 5909, UERM, Etymotic ER-4S, Sony EX800ST and FAD FI-BA-SS. And this is why I initially questioning strongly your initial opinions and specially your comment of the iO-12's bass vs the TH900's bass.

I also specifically speaking, more early in this thread, about the different and distinct 4 basic sound modes and my perception/opinion of bass which is very good ("hi-fi" + ANC Off) or 'never for me' because is very elevated ("bass" mode + ANC on), and this last is actually 'never for me' because is have a double bass boost, one from the "bass" setting and the other from having ANC On.

This is why is very important being specific about which of the 4 basic sound modes we're speaking about, and is why this is raising disagreements because in your first long initial impressions you never specifying that your 'elevated bass' comments of the iO-12 are specifically using "hi-fi" setting + ANC On...and also "bass" mode + ANC On.

 

[Tim van der Leeuw]

Hey,


I'm very glad with all the tests and comparisons you have done.

In passive mode, what you hear is the sound that your DAC+AMP produce and you can tune that to make the headphones sound better. Perhaps those people who find the Dali IO-12 amazing in passive mode, have a DAC+AMP combination that drives them better / differently than what you have, or just a different tuning that they like better, or is more akin to the tuning of the Dali's built-in DAC+AMP combo.

Actually I am amazed how good sound Dali managed to optimize given these drivers. I have the hunch if they replaced the driver and adapted the SW, they could make far, far better headphones.

I singled out this sentence to reply to because: tuning their internal DAC+AMP to the drivers is what all BT headphone manufacturers do, to get the best sound out of them.


Listen to the B&O H9i (my current cans that need replacing) in passive mode -- and they sound like crap, nothing like what they sound like in active mode (either USB-C or BT).

The much-praised Focal Bathys only have an active mode, even when hooking up an analogue wire, because in passive mode, again they sound like crap (there is one YouTube review who managed to listen to them in a purely passive mode despire everyone saying that doesn't work. And he said that they sound like crap in that mode. Listen to this video just past the 11 minute mark: ).


And your hunch is exactly mine too: if they put good drivers in a wireless headphone, same as they would put in a good wired headphone, and then put in a good DAC/AMP in there, we could get amazing sound.

So I've been paying attention to passive headphone performance recently when selecting a new BT headphone. And it doesn't need to be the most audiophile quality for me, I just have to like it enough to enjoy it!


Problem is, I think, that hardly anyone who has BT headphones will actually use them a lot in passive mode and that's why manufacturers don't invest a lot into that.