[Whitigir]

Maybe i am wrong this one, and you did not pretend the nfb27.38 was short on annonced power. Not sure. Does not matter so much, cause the rest is all plain wrong and botched. Let me explain.

Driving the rca output at 6v is beyond what audio-gd used for their meaurements, and beyond what anyone would use in a typical setup as normal listening level. So it's pointless. Redo your measurements using 2.5V as i assume audio-gd did and correct your review. If you are honest.
As you must know, any decent power amp will be insanely loud playing a 2.5 volts signal, most will even saturate.

So, you dac measurements are pointless, as are those of the hp output. You are not trying to use a valid use case but you are rather trying to make audio-gd look bad. So again, redo all these measurement with human compatible levels or go annoy people somewhere else cause time is precious and this forum has normally a useful purpose. Go have a drink with Jimster if nothing better comes up.

Do you find repeating yourself a bit tiring ? an honest question

 

[FredA]

Do you find repeating yourself a bit tiring ? an honest question

Yes. But worth it. Kingwa is a competent, honest and good guy and deserves his success.

 

[FredA]

Interesting why Class D amps don't measure well. My class D amps sound pretty smooth and clean, maybe too clean??

The best class-d out-perform or equal pretty much anything. Mines (Nord One Up with class-a input stage using Sparkos opamps and hypex nc500-based) are really excellent, like the best class-a design out there under 10k.

 

[firegon]

Hello guys,
I've recently ordered HE-9 and I'm also using KGSS. Arguably both amps would benefit from a DAC that leans more towards the musical side of sound ... or so I think. Definitely don't want to go full analytical.
Also, I love the way my MHDT Orchid with TDA1541A N2 and Bendix 6385 sounds. Sound is quite lush/rich, but doesn't lack detail and is never muffled or veiled. On top of that Bendix gives soooo much air.
Sadly it's not balanced and my KGSS doesn't know what RCA is.

So I'm looking for a balanced DAC that would (at least in some ways) resemble Orchid - the more it outperforms it, the better of course. And since I'm still an owner of Master 6 and soon-to-be owner of HE-9, both R2R 7 and R2R 7HE are the first two units on my list. I love what R2R brings to the table (yeah I know 1541A isn't the same thing) and I have faith in Audio-GD, when it comes to performance to price ratio.

My question is, what other choices would You suggest to at least consider? Yggdrasil, Holo Spring level 3?
Reading reviews never hurts, but I need to know what to read about.

Any feedback/tip is certainly appreciated!

Cheers,
Michael

 

[Whitigir]

Orchid ? Get a Tulip Chord Dave ? MSB DAC ? Just kidding, you can stay with R2R 7 and it will do just fine. I use LKS MA-004 with my KG T2 and SR009. It is freaking awesome

 

[FredA]

Hello guys,
I've recently ordered HE-9 and I'm also using KGSS. Arguably both amps would benefit from a DAC that leans more towards the musical side of sound ... or so I think. Definitely don't want to go full analytical.
Also, I love the way my MHDT Orchid with TDA1541A N2 and Bendix 6385 sounds. Sound is quite lush/rich, but doesn't lack detail and is never muffled or veiled. On top of that Bendix gives soooo much air.
Sadly it's not balanced and my KGSS doesn't know what RCA is.

So I'm looking for a balanced DAC that would (at least in some ways) resemble Orchid - the more it outperforms it, the better of course. And since I'm still an owner of Master 6 and soon-to-be owner of HE-9, both R2R 7 and R2R 7HE are the first two units on my list. I love what R2R brings to the table (yeah I know 1541A isn't the same thing) and I have faith in Audio-GD, when it comes to performance to price ratio.

My question is, what other choices would You suggest to at least consider? Yggdrasil, Holo Spring level 3?
Reading reviews never hurts, but I need to know what to read about.

Any feedback/tip is certainly appreciated!

Cheers,
Michael

The r2r 7 is not the richest sounding as far as mids (meaning the quantity, as the mids are expressive and rich in information), it sound rather flat, clean, liquid and resolved, with great soundstaging, and more analytical then the old Master-7 but in a good way. But it combines very well with nfb-1amp which is little lush. Consider the Denafrips Terminator. The R2R 7 HE is supposed to bring some more substance to the party according to feedback on french forums.

 

[Currawong]

@amirm Hi nwavguy.

 

[DACLadder]

What the hell is a Topping DX7? The above graph does not look like any THD measurement I have ever seen. Standard modus operandi for THD measurement of analog outputs (voltage) is input 1Khz tone at 0dB reference and then measure the harmonic peak amplitude differences on the outputs. Square root of sum of the peak values (squared) gives you a number (THD percentage). The above graph is a frequency sweep of some kind.

I have used Audio Precision measurement equipment for years as claimed in "tutorial for audio measurements" link above. They are expensive beasts and generally considered an industry standard. Audio GD uses Audio Precision as well. Casual audiophiles could not afford this equipment (in tip-top calibrated condition).

Sorry for digressing off topic LOL!

 

[Currawong]

What the hell is a Topping DX7?

Some random product that was likely manufactured to measure well.

 

[FredA]

Some random product that was likely manufactured to measure well.

Topping is a Chinese brand who started out making class-t amps, very honest products for the price. My guess is the dx-7 is decent. However, I would take the r2r 11 without a blink over it. In fact, i own one and at that price point, it sounds INSANELY good. Better than reknown brand products selling for 10 times the money. Buy one and thank me after.

 

[Wynnytsky]

I love the way my MHDT Orchid with TDA1541A N2 and Bendix 6385 sounds

My friend's lampi big6 didn't have an "acceptable" USB input so he sold it. Before jumping on another big ticket DAC he grabbed an r2r dac for $300 (MHDT Paradisea). To his surprise he retained much of the magic with more speed. Usually spending big is cheaper in the long run because you fast forward past all the incremental upgrade purchases. Then lesson is, unless your getting an in-home evaluation then your like the rest of us, rolling the dice. For me it's rare for an "upgrade" to be a step backwards, but they generally invite a "course correction" elsewhere (wires, etc).

 

[amirm]

@amirm Hi nwavguy.

Me? No. I am much more handsome than nwavguy:

 

[FredA]

Also,

My friend's lampi big6 didn't have an "acceptable" USB input so he sold it. Before jumping on another big ticket DAC he grabbed an r2r dac for $300 (MHDT Paradisea). To his surprise he retained much of the magic with more speed. Usually spending big is cheaper in the long run because you fast forward past all the incremental upgrade purchases. Then lesson is, unless your getting an in-home evaluation then your like the rest of us, rolling the dice. For me it's rare for an "upgrade" to be a step backwards, but they generally invite a "course correction" elsewhere (wires, etc).

Also, the devil is in the details. If using a computer, you have to find a way to ensure it won't pollute the digital signal. As an example, just moving the power supply indirectly feeding my ddc from a the balanced transformer feeding also my dac to the power distributor feeding the computer, trying to avoid, with sucess, a ground loop made my setup sound dead and boring. Computer audio is very tricky. Using a silent transport is key, whatever form it takes and is as important as the dac you use.

 

[amirm]

Driving the rca output at 6v is beyond what audio-gd used for their meaurements, and beyond what anyone would use in a typical setup as normal listening level. So it's pointless.

The audio-gd has output levels > 10 volt. So I reduced it to match that of Topping for a proper comparison.

Redo your measurements using 2.5V as i assume audio-gd did and correct your review. If you are honest.

Done that already. I even gave you a link. Here is their measurement again:

Here is mine:

The level is 0.212 dbV or a little over 1.0 volt RMS (couldn't get it to be exact given their volume control and distortion products).

You want to explain to me the difference? Or for that matter why a DAC is tested in "analog to analog" mode of the Audio Precision? That tells me that they did not even try to measure the DAC as a DAC. Because doing so would mean the AP test name would be "D to A." Above I mimicked what they did by testing the pre-amp of the unit. And there, that amp which is the main I/V converter and buffer for the DAC shows lots of distortion. As it should with an amp without feedback.

If we could get -110 dB harmonic distortions out of an amplifier, why would anyone use feedback? We use feedback to get those kinds of numbers. In other words, the measurement they have posted is for a different system, not this.

So go ahead and trust stuff you have not verified. But please don't keep getting personal with me without any data of your own to share.

 

[FredA]

The audio-gd has output levels > 10 volt. So I reduced it to match that of Topping for a proper comparison.


Done that already. I even gave you a link. Here is their measurement again:

Here is mine:

The level is 0.212 dbV or a little over 1.0 volt RMS (couldn't get it to be exact given their volume control and distortion products).

You want to explain to me the difference? Or for that matter why a DAC is tested in "analog to analog" mode of the Audio Precision? That tells me that they did not even try to measure the DAC as a DAC. Because doing so would mean the AP test name would be "D to A." Above I mimicked what they did by testing the pre-amp of the unit. And there, that amp which is the main I/V converter and buffer for the DAC shows lots of distortion. As it should with an amp without feedback.

If we could get -110 dB harmonic distortions out of an amplifier, why would anyone use feedback? We use feedback to get those kinds of numbers. In other words, the measurement they have posted is for a different system, not this.

So go ahead and trust stuff you have not verified. But please don't keep getting personal with me without any data of your own to share.

Where does your 1V figure come from? The peak values between the two graphs don't seem to match, audio-gd's looks to be at -6dB, while yours is at zero, whatever that means.

Why using feedback? To avoid oversized power supplies and the addional cost/design effort implied. Size/weight/cost reduction. Non feedback gears sound more natural to me.

That said, those spikes should make the sound very tubby. And harsh at the same time. These have to be explained. Their level is ridiculously high. I don't know. Maybe the load you are using is not exactly what you think it is, or this dac/amp has defective parts and should be serviced. Or your Audio Precision needs calibration. If it really measures like this, it should sound a bit like crap as far as i know.

Maybe it needs some playing time, as i mentioned, or just some heating up. These gears sound strange for the first 4-6 hours after turning them on. Try to measure it after this delay. Otherwise, contact Kingwa for clues, he should be very helpful, assuming he is not mad at you.

As for me, I am not familiar at all with the AP, can't help you with it. Maybe @DACLadder could help.

If the gear sounds like crap, the owner should have it repaired under warranty. Never had issues of that sort with my own gears.

I spent my night listening to music using my r2r 7/master-1/nord one up setup. Really had a good time. Measurements are not a religion to me as they are to you. They are not telling the whole story. After all, it is what you percieve with your ears that matters. And that is what makes this hobby worthwhile. I did not buy all that stuff to contemplate graphs all night long, that is not my thing. I need to evade from this crazy world and my audio setup allows that. Even at the office, using the little r2r 11, i get into my world and am able to get perfect focus on what i have to do to move things forward.

The measurement issue should be resolved however, just to ensure that what audio-gd publishes is accurare, and to determine if the dac/amp is in proper condition. This means work for you. I really don't care much about the outcome as long as the measurements are as advertised in the end, either by having your test fixed or by having them modified by audio-gd if they are wrong. I expect the former. I don't mind if it is the latter, it won't change my opinion on the gears. I am a human being, not a device.

The signal levels you were using initially got me upset hence my being personal. You have got to admit you were using ridiculously high levels.